India and Pakistan - Border Clashes 2019

[MilEME09]

Pakistan's military said Wednesday it shot down two Indian warplanes in the disputed region of Kashmir and captur...

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/pakistan-says-2-indian-warplanes-downed-2-pilots-captured-1.4314522

Things heating up rather quickly in Kashmir, hopefully cooler heads prevail

 

[MarkOttawa]

1) India Pakistan: Kashmir fighting sees Indian aircraft downed
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47383634

Pakistani soldiers by what Pakistan says is wreckage from a downed Indian jet

2) India-Pakistan tensions: All the latest updates
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/india-pakistan-tensions-latest-updates-190227063414443.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Good2Golf]

Amazing how flat a MiG-21 looks pancaked in from a 30,000’ flat spin...

 

[YZT580]

Good visual commercial for not relying upon older generation fighters though.

 

[CBH99]

Good thing India didn't let a brutally ineffective government bureaucracy prevent them from buying state of the art Rafale fights, and instead they were able to move quickly...   

Would be a shame for Pakistani F-16's to be going up against HAL Tejas.  Let's hope that pretty big fleet of SU-30s comes in handy. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Gutsy going into combat today in that flying museum piece. Was it shot down by fighters or ADA?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Pakistan says they will release the pilot

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/pakistan-will-release-captured-indian-pilot-on-friday-as-gesture-of-peace-pm-imran-khan-says

 

[The Bread Guy]

Gutsy going into combat today in that flying museum piece. Was it shot down by fighters or ADA?

BBC's initial version ...

... Pakistan's military spokesman said that Pakistan fighter jets had carried out "strikes" - exactly what they did remains unclear - in Indian-administered Kashmir on Wednesday.

Two Indian air force jets then responded, crossing the de facto border that divides Kashmir. "Our jets were ready and we shot both of them down," Maj Gen Asif Ghafoor said.

He said that one Indian pilot was in the custody of the Pakistani army. Officials had previously said two pilots had been captured and one had been taken to hospital.

No explanation has been given as to why the numbers have changed ...

... with a bit of speculation via the South China Morning Post today:

Beijing has refused to confirm a former Pakistani air force officer’s claim that China-made JF-17 fighters were used by the Pakistan Air Force to shoot down Indian military aircraft.

Less than two hours after the claim was made on Wednesday morning, the share price of the state-owned plane maker’s sister company rose in trading in Shenzhen.

The Chinese defence ministry did not respond on Thursday when asked whether JF-17s were involved in the Pakistan-India clashes.

Instead, ministry spokesman Ren Guoqiang said: “The most urgent and important thing is both India and Pakistan should keep restraint.”

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had said on Wednesday that it shot down two Indian fighter jets that entered Pakistani airspace near the Kashmir Line of Control, and captured a pilot. India said that its air force lost only one MiG-21 Bison and pilot while shooting down a Pakistani F-16.

The Pakistani military denied any involvement of the American-made F-16s in the engagement, making it more likely JF-17 jets were deployed – a theory bolstered by a tweet by a retired PAF officer ...

More on the JF-17 here (PAK Aeronautical Complex Karma), here (archived Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation page, in Chinese) and here (Wikipedia - usual caveats apply).

 

[211RadOp]

WAGAH, Pakistan -- Pakistani officials brought a captured Indian pilot to a border crossing with India for handover on Friday, a "gesture of peace" promised by Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan amid a dramatic escalation with the country's archrival over the disputed region of Kashmir.

The pilot, identified as Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, was taken in a convoy that set out from the eastern Pakistani city of Lahore to the border crossing at Wagah earlier in the day, escorted by military vehicles with soldiers, their weapons drawn.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/pakistan-brings-captured-indian-pilot-to-border-for-handover-1.4317917

 

[Colin Parkinson]

good on Pakistan for doing that, hopefully this gesture is remembered when India is in the same position.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

More on the JF-17 here (PAK Aeronautical Complex Karma), here (archived Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation page, in Chinese) and here (Wikipedia - usual caveats apply).

The two closest PAF fighter bases to Kashmir are:

Minhas: 33 Tac Wing
                      - 14 (AS) Sqn -  JF-17
                      - 16 (MR) Sqn - JF-17

Peshawar: 36 Tac Attack Wing
                      - 17 (AS) Sqn - F-7P/PG
                      - 26 (MR) Sqn - JF-17

Source: Scramble

 

[FilaFubu]

Hi guys, I'm just looking for some independent/neutral opinions on this certain piece from the Kashmir conflict, since both medias are inflating some news with bias and misreporting some events.
__________

An Indian Air Force (IAF) Mi17 helicopter crashed some 200km inside Indian Kashmir, around the same time Indian officials say that Pakistan Air Force (PAF) conducted strikes inside India.
https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/iaf-jet-crashes-in-budgam-district-of-kashmir/articleshow/68179821.cms

IAF says the helicopter crashed due to technical faults. But rumors on the Pakistani side claim that the heli was shot down either by PAF in an air-to-air kill or by a rebel manpad.

One of the images from the wreck show a large hole in the airframe which some believe can only be caused by the penetration of a missile,
https://defence.pk/pdf/attachments/8a52e1ba-8461-4702-8fde-feea0f6734ae-jpeg.543580/

Just wondering what you guys make of this?

Thanks

 

[The Bread Guy]

Hi guys, I'm just looking for some independent/neutral opinions on this certain piece from the Kashmir conflict, since both medias are inflating some news with bias and misreporting some events
__________

An Indian Air Force (IAF) Mi17 helicopter crashed some 200km inside Indian Kashmir, around the same time Indian officials say that Pakistan Air Force (PAF) conducted strikes inside India ...

Next to no coverage of this outside "backyard" media, especially given the bigger events in the area -- Janes had a brief up for a while (screen capture attached - link is to a Google Cache version while it lasts), but it seems to be no longer posted.

Meanwhile, bellingcat (OSINT folks) looks over the open source imagery to assess the odds of an F-16 having been shot down, as a few on social media claim, rather than a Mig-21.  Summary:  "...  there’s no compelling evidence offered as of yet that an F-16 would have been shot down, and all signs point to MiG-21 wreckage having been on display thus far."

 

[FilaFubu]

Next to no coverage of this outside "backyard" media, especially given the bigger events in the area -- Janes had a brief up for a while (screen capture attached - link is to a Google Cache version while it lasts), but it seems to be no longer posted.

I was asking specifically about "the hole" in the wreckage.

Other Indian media sources say 6 IAF personnel on board all dead.

More pictures of the crash at Budgam,
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRXyZvwTKkHD8IZ1hYE-CPEAW_Wwifx2YZz0xudlKABhMKz_jDN

https://img.etimg.com/thumb/msid-68180972,width-640,resizemode-4,imgsize-352082/crash-location.jpg

https://m.hindustantimes.com/rf/image_size_960x540/HT/p2/2019/02/27/Pictures/iaf-chopper-crashes-in-budgam_6b17cbe6-3ab4-11e9-9798-f85edb62de22.jpg

A video of the crash wreckage,
https://youtu.be/WrcYPzNYUzw
Originally, it was reported as another Mig-21 crash (this is in Indian Kashmir, separate from the crash in Pakistani Kashmir), but you can clearly see the rotor blades of the heli in the wreckage.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I was asking specifically about "the hole" in the wreckage.

IIRC most (but not all) Manpads missiles use impact/proximity fuses. So, if a Manpads missile brought it down you would probably wouldn't see one big hole, but several smaller holes caused by warhead fragmentation.

 

[Good2Golf]

The first picture doesn’t look like the same area surrounding the video and other photos, so hard to confirm if the apparent puncture on the tail boom is the same event.  While the puncture looks significant, it clears the upper portion of the tail boom that contains the tail rotor shaft and the boom is otherwise intact longitudinally, so it could also be a blunt puncture by an object on the ground.  Even if it was an un-fused munition (RPG, etc.) it would have appeared to pass straight through the boom, missing the tail shaft and tail rotor pitch controls.  The report mentions poor weather, which is either: a) true and thus unrelated to the PAF, or b: untrue/unrelated and caused by something other than a PAF aircraft shooting something through the relatively narrow structure of the tail boom with a weapon that passed through the boom kinetically (vice explosively).  Like others, I’d expect to see a lot more fragmentary warhead damage if something hit the helicopter.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

 

[RISING SUN]

The first picture doesn’t look like the same area surrounding the video and other photos, so hard to confirm if the apparent puncture on the tail boom is the same event. While the puncture looks significant, it clears the upper portion of the tail boom that contains the tail rotor shaft and the boom is otherwise intact longitudinally, so it could also be a blunt puncture by an object on the ground. Even if it was an un-fused munition (RPG, etc.) it would have appeared to pass straight through the boom, missing the tail shaft and tail rotor pitch controls. The report mentions poor weather, which is either: a) true and thus unrelated to the PAF, or b: untrue/unrelated and caused by something other than a PAF aircraft shooting something through the relatively narrow structure of the tail boom with a weapon that passed through the boom kinetically (vice explosively). Like others, I’d expect to see a lot more fragmentary warhead damage if something hit the helicopter.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

India’s air force says it shot down its own helicopter​

NEW DELHI (AP) — India’s air force said Friday it accidently shot down one of its own helicopters as it engaged Pakistani fighter planes in an aerial confrontation in Indian-controlled Kashmir in February.

Air Chief Rakesh Singh Bhaduria said “it was a big mistake.”


Six air force personnel were killed in the crash, which occurred close to the airport on the outskirts of the region's main city of Srinagar.

Bhaduria said the air force has completed an investigation of the incident and is taking punitive action against two officers.

The Press Trust of India news agency said a surface-to-air missile shot down the Mi-17 aircraft in Kashmir on Feb. 27.


India said its fighter planes hit a militant camp on a heavily forested hilltop in Balakot inside Pakistan on Feb. 26. It said the camp held members of a militant group responsible for a suicide car bombing in Kashmir that killed 40 Indian paramilitary soldiers.

Pakistan said its air force shot down an Indian fighter jet a day later in an aerial confrontation and took an Indian pilot prisoner. He was later released.

India’s air force says it shot down its own helicopter

India’s air force said Friday it accidently shot down one of its own helicopters as it engaged Pakistani fighter planes in an aerial confrontation in Indian-controlled Kashmir in February.

www.airforcetimes.com

 

[RISING SUN]

IIRC most (but not all) Manpads missiles use impact/proximity fuses. So, if a Manpads missile brought it down you would probably wouldn't see one big hole, but several smaller holes caused by warhead fragmentation.

Budgam Mi-17 crash: IAF chief admits big mistake, says our own missile hit chopper​

IAF chief Rakesh Kumar Bhadauria has admitted that the Mi-17 chopper crash on February 27 was a "big mistake" on part of the air force. The crash had left six IAF personnel dead.

Speaking to the media on Friday, Air Chief Marshal Bhadauria said, "Court of Inquiry has completed and it was our mistake as our missile had hit our own chopper. We will take action against the two officers. We accept this was our big mistake and we will ensure such mistakes are not repeated in the future."

In the crash, the Indian Air Force lost six personnel when their chopper was hit by its own SPYDER air defence missile over Budgam.


Bhadauria also said, "Rafale and S-400 Air Defence missile system will further bolster the capability of the Indian Air Force."

IAF Chief on Mi-17 chopper crash in Srinagar on Feb 27: Court of Inquiry completed & it was our mistake as our missile had hit our own chopper. We will take action against two officers. We accept this was our big mistake and we will ensure such mistakes are not repeated in future https://t.co/TgNS9RsKqb
ANI (@ANI) October 4, 2019

Earlier it was reported that the IAF Court of Inquiry has found five officers guilty for the crash of a helicopter over Srinagar on February 27 when India and Pakistan were engaged in a short aerial battle.

This was a day after IAF jets conducted airstrikes in Pakistan's Balakot and destroyed Jaish-e-Mohammed terror camps and Pakistan tried to retaliate by sending fighter jets towards the Indian side.

The fateful Mi-17 helicopter was shot down by an Indian missile when Indian air defences were on high alert following the February 26 Balakot airstrike that targetted a terrorist camp in Pakistan. The helicopter crashed near Budgam, killing all six Indian Air Force personnel on board.


The Mi-17 V-5 chopper belonged to the 154 Helicopter Unit and it crashed within 10 minutes after taking off while the Indian fighter jets were involved in an aerial dogfight with Pakistani jets. Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman was also a part of this dogfight.

Budgam Mi-17 crash: IAF chief admits big mistake, says our own missile hit chopper

The Budgam air crash on February 27 that left 6 IAF personnel, was a big mistake on part of the air force, admitted IAF chief RKS Bhadauria.

www.indiatoday.in