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How many soldiers in the army are combat arms?

Blake Castelein

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The most recent statistic I can find online for the size of the army is 21,600 (active), but when I counted up the size of all the infantry, armoured, artillery, engineer, and service support battalions/regiments using usual size definitions (ie: 600 in a battalion) the number I came up with was around 11,000. So does that mean that around half the army is combat focused and the rest are cooks, intelligence, mechanics, etc?

Apologies in advance if I've answered my own question, or is this has been answered before.
 
L

LightFighter

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I think you'd have a hard time finding a full strength battalion anywhere in Canada unless it's about to deploy.


Also, in a Combat Arms unit, every single member isn't Combat Arms. In a Infantry battalion for example, you would have Signallers, Vehicle Techs, Clerks, etc in addition to all the Infantry pers.
 

George Wallace

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LightFighter said:
I think you'd have a hard time finding a full strength battalion anywhere in Canada unless it's about to deploy.


Also, in a Combat Arms unit, every single member isn't Combat Arms. In a Infantry battalion for example, you would have Signallers, Vehicle Techs, Clerks, etc in addition to all the Infantry pers.

Not to mention the numbers of Combat Arms personnel posted to HQs, support to the Reserves, the various Schools, Base and Range postings, etc.
 

crseo

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There are actually only two trades that are combat arms - Armour and Infantry. Engineers and Artillery are called Combat Support (CS) not to be confused with Combat Service Support (CSS).
 

dapaterson

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crseo said:
There are actually only two trades that are combat arms - Armour and Infantry. Engineers and Artillery are called Combat Support (CS) not to be confused with Combat Service Support (CSS).

Can of worms.  Artillery and Engineers are considered as combat arms.
 

crseo

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dapaterson said:
Can of worms.  Artillery and Engineers are considered as combat arms.

I realize its a can of worms and not trying to start a debate on it, but by definition (Ref: Land Operations), there are only two trades that are combat arms.

The point is just to clarify if the OP wanted combat arms or combat arms and combat support.
 

Lumber

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dapaterson said:
Can of worms.  Artillery and Engineers are considered as combat arms.

And Pilot and MARS :cdnsalute:...
 

George Wallace

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crseo said:
There are actually only two trades that are combat arms - Armour and Infantry. Engineers and Artillery are called Combat Support (CS) not to be confused with Combat Service Support (CSS).

Now the great debate begins again.  It all depends on whose 'yardstick' you want to follow.

In some books relating to the Land Forces, Combat Arms consist of Armour, Infantry, Engineers, and Artillery; Combat Support includes the Sigs and Int; and CSS covers all the Maintainers and Supply in the Service Bns and other Branches and Corps of the Army who support from as far back as 'national' locations. 
 

crseo

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If we consider B-GL-300-001/FP-001 Land Operations to be the de facto "bible" for conducting land operations then:

2. Force Elements. Combat, combat support, combat service support, and command
support are the possible elements of a land force. The proportion of each element within a
specific land force will be task-tailored and therefore will vary for different operations:

a. Combat Elements. Combat (cbt) elements consist of those elements that
engage the enemy directly. They fight and typically employ direct fire weapons
and manoeuvre, and include armour, infantry, and direct fire units
. They are
considered ground manoeuvre forces.

b. Combat Support Elements. Combat support (cbt sp) elements consist of
those elements that provide fire support, operational assistance, and enablers to
combat elements through designated command and control and fire support
relationships. Cbt sp elements include fire support, air defence,
reconnaissance, combat engineer, some electronic warfare elements, and some
aviation assets. They may be referred to as simply support elements
.

c. Combat Service Support Elements. Combat service support (CSS) elements
primarily provide administration and logistics support to Cbt or Cbt Sp elements.
CSS elements include log, HSS, LEM, and PSS. Force support engineers that
normally provide water, electrical power, infrastructure, and main supply route
(MSR) maintenance are classified as CSS elements.

d. Command Support Elements. Command support (Comd Sp) elements assist
commanders in the exercise of command. It includes staff of all types,
communications, intelligence, information systems, and other elements
assigned to protect, sustain, and move the commander or the headquarters.
They include signals and headquarters organizations.

Regardless, like I said, just clarifying OP intent.
 

George Wallace

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crseo said:
Regardless, like I said, just clarifying OP intent.


Actually, I think you built a mountain out of a molehill........but it is now out there; a broad explanation to a simple question.
 

McG

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crseo said:
If we consider B-GL-300-001/FP-001 Land Operations to be the de facto "bible" for conducting land operations then:
If that is what you want to quote, then you will note it claims that "combat arms" do not exist except as a colloquialism.

... you left off sub-para e in your snippet. 
 

Blackadder1916

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MCG said:
If that is what you want to quote, then you will note it claims that "combat arms" do not exist except as a colloquialism.

... you left off sub-para e in your snippet.
and to include it (though if my pdf version dated 2008-01-01 is superceded, apologies)

e. Combat Arms. The term “combat arms” is a colloquial term that refers to a
slightly wider description of “combat elements.” It includes armour, infantry, field
engineers, and artillery.
 

daftandbarmy

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Blackadder1916 said:
and to include it (though if my pdf version dated 2008-01-01 is superceded, apologies)

e. Combat Arms. The term “combat arms” is a colloquial term that refers to a
slightly wider description of “combat elements.” It includes armour, infantry, field
engineers, and artillery.

a.k.a. those who inflict, and sustain, the majority of casualties in any armed conflict
 

dapaterson

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Lumber said:
And Pilot and MARS :cdnsalute:...

While they are classed as OPS GEN positions, CBT ARMS positions are limited to land environment occupations as detailed earlier in this thread.
 

Loachman

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Which would include Tac Hel, were the CF properly organized.
 

Shamrock

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crseo said:
I realize its a can of worms and not trying to start a debate on it, but by definition (Ref: Land Operations), there are only two trades that are combat arms.

The point is just to clarify if the OP wanted combat arms or combat arms and combat support.

Don't forget those pathetic sadsacks armour and infantry employ as reconnaissance.
 

Kat Stevens

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daftandbarmy said:
a.k.a. those who inflict, and sustain, the majority of casualties in any armed conflict

So in The First Great Global Misunderstanding rats and dysentery were combat arms?
 

OldSolduer

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daftandbarmy said:
If they paid their mess dues, absolutely!  ;D

If not we need to go after the estates of rats and dysentry to collect overdue mess dues. >:D
 
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