How does the army issue weapons?

[MJP]

We would save money and ammunition if we assigned recruits C7a2's that followed them throughout their career.

Where is the money savings?

Within that discussion of savings please include all shipping costs IAW with the regulations, for the sake of the argument assume that 70% of all weapons shipments will be by DND milkrun and the remaining 25% by commercial carriers.  5% will be air expedited because of time constraints or poor planning.

Also talk about the opportunity cost of the manhours used to prep, ship and receive those weapons at all levels in the chain of custody. 

 

[Haggis]

Within that discussion of savings please include all shipping costs IAW with the regulations, for the sake of the argument assume that 70% of all weapons shipments will be by DND milkrun and the remaining 25% by commercial carriers.  5% will be air expedited because of time constraints or poor planning.

Each soldier would be responsible for shipping their weapon, properly secured, of course, from place to place.  This would be covered by either the cost move envelope on posting or by the incidentals allowance on TD.

 

[McG]

Each soldier would be responsible for shipping their weapon, properly secured, of course, from place to place.  This would be covered by either the cost move envelope on posting or by the incidentals allowance on TD.

... so, you would take money from soldiers' pockets to needlessly move weapons around the country without adding cost to the crown?

But lets forget shipping costs.  There are hundreds of service personnel posted to training establishemts, HQs and bases without a personal weapon being assigned.  If one wanted to permanently assign everyone a weapon for the duration of their career, then we will need to buy a lot more rifles.  I don't think there are any savings to be had here.  There is only headache.

 

[MJP]

Each soldier would be responsible for shipping their weapon, properly secured, of course, from place to place.  This would be covered by either the cost move envelope on posting or by the incidentals allowance on TD.

We aren't talking about fantasy, it would require a major rewrite of the security regulations pertaining to storage and control of weapons. It is about the most unlikely scenario to happen.

But to play your little game, that covers cost moves what about courses where weapons are required? 

 

[Haggis]

... so, you would take money from soldiers' pockets to needlessly move weapons around the country without adding cost to the crown?

The Crown would be paying that money out regardless as part of the cost move package or the Incidentals allowance.  It's not an incremental cost.  And, as for "taking money out of the soldier's pockets", one must clearly understand that the Incidentals allowance is not "income" it's an allowance to cover unforeseen minor expenses while on TD.  it covers stuff like internet café charges, valet services, laundry etc.

We aren't talking about fantasy, it would require a major rewrite of the security regulations pertaining to storage and control of weapons. It is about the most unlikely scenario to happen.

Why?  Many police and peace officers travel the country daily for training and assignments with their service weapons in tow, on commercial airlines, in private cars and the like.  They are completely in compliance with the Firearms Act and their particular agency/police force regulations.  Many civilians do likewise with restricted and, in some cases, prohibited weapons.

But to play your little game, that covers cost moves what about courses where weapons are required? 

The member would transport their weapons as stated above, with the costs covered out of the unit TD.  There would, of course, be a need for "loaner" weapons at each training establishment for those members who do not have a "lifetime" weapon.

 

[McG]

The Crown would be paying that money out regardless as part of the cost move package or the Incidentals allowance.  It's not an incremental cost.  And, as for "taking money out of the soldier's pockets", one must clearly understand that the Incidentals allowance is not "income" it's an allowance to cover unforeseen minor expenses while on TD.  it covers stuff like internet café charges, valet services, laundry etc.

If you impose a new expense on soldiers without increasing the allowance which compensates, then you are taking money from thier pockets.  So, would you take money from soldiers' pockets to needlessly move weapons around the country without adding cost to the crown?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Where is the money savings?

Ammunition.
We're constantly re-zeroing weapons. I'm not talking about minor adjustments but the ranges you run where people aren't even hitting in the same time zone let alone on paper. 
Time is money and time is wasted trying to sort them out with weapons they've never touched before. Personalized weapons would be reasonable zeroed at all times.

People are also always showing up to the ranges with weapons they've just signed out that day and something is wrong with the gun. Sight is messed up, ejector is messed up.  For whatever reason the person before broke it and it didn't get reported or it was reported and forgotten about.

I'm willing to bet we'll save money on maintenance and repair too. People will treat their guns better then it's "theirs" and not just theirs for a few months or the year they're in a specific company, squadron etc..  A more tangible reflection of how they take care of their stuff. Personally I try and take care of my rifle at work like I do my own personal firearms. It's eternally frustrating switching companies and getting issued a rifle that looks like a caveman used for a tool.

As far as shipping costs have them carry it with them as Haggis alluded to. Sign the rifle out of where they're leaving and sign it into where they're going.

 

[Haggis]

If you impose a new expense on soldiers without increasing the allowance which compensates, then you are taking money from thier pockets.  So, would you take money from soldiers' pockets to needlessly move weapons around the country without adding cost to the crown?

Okay, then, make it a claimable expense like "excess baggage".

 

[dangerboy]

Ammunition.
We're constantly re-zeroing weapons. I'm not talking about minor adjustments but the ranges you run where people aren't even hitting in the same time zone let alone on paper. 
Time is money and time is wasted trying to sort them out with weapons they've never touched before. Personalized weapons would be reasonable zeroed at all times.

Are you using the culminator?  It is a good tool to ensure that will help boresight the sight so that you should be hitting paper.  Then at the end of the range use it to record the sight setting so you can confrirm that your sight is still zeroed.

 

[MJP]

As far as shipping costs have them carry it with them as Haggis alluded to. Sign the rifle out of where they're leaving and sign it into where they're going.

Neither you or Haggis get to rewrite the security rules so I will stick to status quo and stay grounded in reality unlike your idea of  wishing away real problems cause they are hard.

Like many things on Army.ca that get ramped up to absurd levels this is a complete non starter.  Fun to hash about but IMHO not feasiable nor really desirable. 

 

[LightFighter]

Groovy, thanks for clearing that up!

Which NCM positions in a unit/section carry sidearms?

Is this question too case/scenario specific? I'd just imagine, "Carrying something big, heavy? Here, take this in case..."

Why are you so interested in a pistol?

As a brand new Pte in the battalion, don't expect to get a position where you will be issued one. You may get an opportunity to shoot a Browning during a range though, also I believe it is still taught in DP1.

Examples of an Infantry Pte/Cpl who may get a pistol is a C6 Gunner, and 9TAC crew.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This thread is just getting too goofy.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Are you using the culminator?  It is a good tool to ensure that will help boresight the sight so that you should be hitting paper.  Then at the end of the range use it to record the sight setting so you can confrirm that your sight is still zeroed.

As often as we can get our hands on them. One of the bigger issues is when other units show up to slide members in.

Neither you or Haggis get to rewrite the security rules so I will stick to status quo and stay grounded in reality unlike your idea of  wishing away real problems cause they are hard.

Shit, and here I just Emailed my proposition to rewrite the rules to General Vance 

We should treat our guns with respect bordering on reverence, not throwing them in the back of MLVWs like cut wood. Or rolling them up in body bags and piling them on top of each other in the back of a bus. Issuing weapons to soldiers on a permanent or semi-permanent would create more accountability for the condition of the gun, improve accuracy, save ammunition and time.

If I'm deploying with a gun to a combat zone I want to know the guy before me didn't clean the chamber by grinding his Gerber in a circle.  Maybe it might work a bit better from a combat arms point of view where we're not posted as much as support trades.

 

[expeditionary]

But what if your "lifetime" weapon broke and you became intimately attached to it's replacement?  Wouldn't that be like cheating on your lifetime weapon?  What would you say/do with your replacement when your lifetime weapon came back from the Armourer?  Would your relationship with your lifetime weapon be the same afterwards?

Though provoking questions...

Ugh. Please leave "cheating" for the woman in my life to haunt me of guilt for the rest of my life. At the end of the day, it's a tool, and it's intrinsic value rests on its ability to go boom when it needs to.

Ideally, what and how to fix would be taught to everyone issued one [lets keep this to combat trades]. So, not only to do you use, but you learn how to repair, what the common breaks are (so they don't break), and what breaks are so far gone, you have to just say goodbye for the sake of combat effectiveness.

All points aside, intrinsic value is a personal representation, and if it exists on a material object, it's matter of opinion [as everything in life!]. I, for instance, would love my rifle issued to me in basic till I was out. I would love my rifle even if I pointed right and it shot left, I'd learn the nuisances of it, and excel within them.

 

[expeditionary]

Examples of an Infantry Pte/Cpl who may get a pistol is a C6 Gunner, and 9TAC crew.

Cool! Thanks!

Why are you so interested in a pistol?

I've been in love with this for a very, very long time.

 

[sarahsmom]

So why not get your FAC and PAL civvy side, and then go and buy yourself your dream pistol?

 

[medicineman]

Paleo, you beat me to it...

On a bit of a side note, that is not the variant we use in the CAF.

MM

 

[BinRat55]

Cool! Thanks!

I've been in love with this for a very, very long time.

Lol... you can have it! IMO next to the Steyr, worst weapon I have ever had to care for (I fired the Styeyr I didn't "care for it")

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Actually with a commercial safety and sights, it's decent handgun, points nice and accurate. It is dated though and not up to high volume use as early IPSC competitors found out.

 

[BinRat55]

Walther PPK