"Hijab Dispute Could Be Behind Girl's Death, Friends Say"

[The_Falcon]

I'm not sure where you guys get the idea that this is the norm in Muslim countries. Many believe that all Muslim women apparently have to walk 5 feet behind the men, cannot drive, cannot go to school, etc. However, go to any progressive Muslim country such as Turkey, Egypt or even some parts of Pakistan (e.g. Karachi) where all of your close-minded stereotypes of Islam are just that, stereotypes.

This sick man does not represent Islam.

Nice red herring there, picked that one up in school?  I guess while we visit these "progressive" countries, we can safely ignore the likes of Saudia Arabia, Syria, Sudan, Iran, Libya then I guess, unless you consider them progressive as well.

 

[aesop081]

Rebelliousness in teenagers is pretty normal here in North America but I'm guessing that growing up in Pakistan it was not the same for him.

So ?

Is he in Pakistan now ?

I hope he rots in jail

 

[PMedMoe]

Read the first post in this thread and you'll notice the "norm" assumption.

Okay, one person said it as opposed to your plural:

I'm not sure where you guys get the idea that this is the norm in Muslim countries.

 

[ROTP Applicant]

I think the ivory towers of academia are giving you hypoxia.

Has it ever occurred to you that I too, may be commenting on this issue based on my travels and my experience? If you need details, then feel free to PM me.

Yes, honour killings occur in non-progressive Muslim countries. And yes, some authorities do not condemn it. However, these actions are not the norm in any Muslim state. Just as most Christians would not want to be represented by the nuts at the Westboro Baptist Church or by the child-molesting Catholic priests. I am sure that Muslims would not want to be represented by animals like this murderer.

Okay, one person said it as opposed to your plural.

Do you think that a person must specifically mention the word “norm” to imply his/her views on the issue? 

Nice red herring there, picked that one up in school?  I guess while we visit these "progressive" countries, we can safely ignore the likes of Saudia Arabia, Syria, Sudan, Iran, Libya then I guess, unless you consider them progressive as well.

Picked what up in school? If you’re implying that honour killings are acceptable in the countries you mentioned above, then please provide facts/evidence to back your statement up. And please do not speak of the vast minority of Muslims that carry-out these senseless acts in those countries.

Edited to add a reponse to Hatchet Man.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I say let him free in the "general population" of whatever federal prison this CRIMINAL ends up in.

When you come to this country, don't expect the people who grew up here to understand your @(*#@(_*# ways such as honour killing and the like and say "oh ok, she didn't like the scarf.  we understand why you killed her."

Because we don't.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Easy folks,.......I don't think every Father killing his family in North America this year has been Muslim.

Keep the prejudices out of this........

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

So ?

Is he in Pakistan now ?

I hope he rots in jail

Obviously he's not in Pakistan now and I too hope that justice is done. Like a lot of people including yourself I'm trying to understand how this tragedy occured....clash of cultures? To an extent. I suspect we'll know more as the reports come in. It may be just another violent controlling guy who snapped. Plenty of those who didn't grow up in Pakistan right here in Canada.

 

[Bograt]

For the third time in this post, let me reiterate, domestic abuse is not limited to Muslim populations.

What I do take particular exception to is being referred to as "small minded" and "prejudiced" because I don't support the idea that women enjoy greater liberties under Muslim religious dogma.  Based on what I have read in the TO media, the victims brother consistently harassed her about wearing the hagib (sp). It is implied that he abused her as well.  He is 26 years old and she was 16. That 'runt' deserves as much as his father.

 

[1feral1]

I'm not sure where you guys get the idea that this is the norm in Muslim countries. Many believe that all Muslim women apparently have to walk 5 feet behind the men, cannot drive, cannot go to school, etc. However, go to any progressive Muslim country such as Turkey, Egypt or even some parts of Pakistan (e.g. Karachi) where all of your close-minded stereotypes of Islam are just that, stereotypes.

This sick man does not represent Islam.

I don't know what flavour of hiesh your puffing on pal, time for a reality check.

Pakistan, ya, heaps of radicals there, and thats where Dan Pearl lost his head, OBL is hiding, and there is lots of support there for the other side. Pakistan is extreme, and held together by chewing gum and pubic hair in the bottom of a dirty urinal as far as I am concerned.

I have been to 5 islamic countries, one of them for 207 days in a very unstable deadly environment. Lots of wierd shit goes on in these festering boils on the arsehole of our phucked up planet. Its another planet in the arab world.

Women have no rights (compared to our western countries), risk stoning for outragous silly reasons, can't even leave the house with a male family escort in MANY cases, many are forced to wear unbearable clothing in 50C weather, now they bring their customs and traditions to the west, and many refuse to assimilate, and respect our laws.

To say women have more rights than in the west is crap, and coming from this iman, I am not suprised to see his outright arrogance (typical - heard this attitude here all too often by their so called community leaders - the same ones that claim OBL is a good man) and it just plains sickens me to thoughts I better not say on here. I will say I am totally uncomfortable with what I see, not only in my homeland of Canada, but here to in the muslim ghettos of western Sydney, where being a WASP can literally cost you your life, or at the least feel so intimidated you leave the area.

Frankly I have had a dirty great big GIANT gutful of it all.

Assimilate or go home! There are many out there who do, have good jobs, raising families, have adopted Canada with open arms, embellishing themselves in our customs and traditions, loving hockey and the rest of our Canadianisms. All the power to them to contribute to our society, but there is also the other side of the coin, and its these ones which scare me. Hiding behind that dangerous dark ages menatality with extreme cultural views and beliefs, and forcing them (threats and intimidation) on others is wrong, and immoral.

Don't like my opinion Civ, write your MP! I'll even call you a whaaaaaaambulance if you like, so don't go playing the PC card here.

I've done my time, and have earned my opinion, not through the media, or a book, but through life experience, not in happy big ME cities which cater to some western music and some lifestyles, but in the most darkest of times, in the most isolated country regions, some reaching out to the Iranian frontier, where you see the real country, and the real people, and the reality of it all.


Wes

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

The accusations are hitting a nerve in the Islamic community.

Usual disclaimers
the chronicle herald                  Published: 2007-12-14

Leaders: Don’t blame Islam

Girl’s slaying should not reflect on religion

By JERED STUFFCO The Canadian Press

TORONTO — Islamic leaders rose to the defence of their religion Thursday as the Muslim community continued to grieve the death of a 16-year-old girl — and deny suggestions that her slaying should in any way be interpreted as a reflection on their faith.

Islam condemns violence and teaches adherents not to force their beliefs upon others, Sheik Alaa El-Sayyed, imam at Mississauga’s Islamic Society of North America, told a news conference in the suburban city west of Toronto that was once home to Aqsa Parvez.

The high school student, who died late Monday in hospital, was embroiled in a long-standing dispute with her family over her apparent reluctance to wear the hijab, the traditional Muslim head scarf, her school friends say.

Police were summoned to her home after a man called 911 to say he’d killed his daughter.

Parvez’s father Muhammad, a taxi driver in Mississauga, is in custody and charged with murder. He has not yet entered a plea.

Police have also charged his 26-year-old son, Waqas, with obstructing police in connection with his sister’s death. He was scheduled to appear in court Friday for a bail hearing.

"The bottom line is, it’s a domestic violence issue," El-Sayyed said.

"We, as Muslims, are Canadians and we should be dealt with just like everyone else. We have rights, duties . . . pros and cons just like all other human beings."

Autopsy results released Wednesday found Parvez died of "neck compression."

The tragedy has underscored a controversial and heated public debate about women’s rights within Canada’s Islamic communities, and inflamed existing tensions already strained by what Muslim leaders say is ignorance and misunderstanding in Canadian society.

Women ultimately have the choice of whether or not they want to wear a hijab, but Islam teaches that such women occupy a more advanced position within the religion, El-Sayyed said.

"When I look at a woman who is covered, I look at her as a soul, a person, a mentality — not a physical or sexual object," he said.

Muslim women who wear veils might not "look pretty," but their modest dress protects them, he added.

Mohammad Iqbal Alnadvi, a marriage counsellor and religious expert at the Al-Fatah Islamic Centre in Oakville, said he believes it’s important for parents in Muslim families to give their daughters a choice when it comes to decisions of dress.

"My daughter, she’s going into Grade 11, and she’s taking the hijab," Alnadvi said.

"I never asked her to take the hijab, but I developed a mentality in her to choose — it is her choice."

 

[Dare]

Muslim women who wear veils might not "look pretty," but their modest dress protects them, he added.

Sure does. Protects them from getting strangled.

 

[1feral1]

[glow=red,2,300]Easy folks,.......I don't think every Father killing his family in North America this year has been Muslim.

True Bruce, its usually over money, divorce, jealousy, rage, or other reasons, not for honour, or because of a scarf, religion, or modest dress.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Dare]

I'm not sure where you guys get the idea that this is the norm in Muslim countries. Many believe that all Muslim women apparently have to walk 5 feet behind the men, cannot drive, cannot go to school, etc. However, go to any progressive Muslim country such as Turkey, Egypt or even some parts of Pakistan (e.g. Karachi) where all of your close-minded stereotypes of Islam are just that, stereotypes.

This sick man does not represent Islam.

I just wanted to state that honour killings are indeed a problem, and have been documented at places like littlegreenfootballs.com .So much a problem that the Turkish government (as can be seen in one of the stories listed below) has been cracking down on the practice. The Brits are looking into it too. This should not be minimized or dismissed as an aberration or unrelated to religious creed. It is a specific problem that does not always end at murder.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/lgf-search.php?searchWith=lgf&searchWhat=entries&searchFrom=2001-02-07&searchTo=2007-12-14&searchString=%22honor+killings%22&maxPerPage=25

 

[ROTP Applicant]

I don't know what flavour of hiesh your puffing on pal, time for a reality check.

I’m not your pal.

Don't like my opinion Civ, write your MP!

Well at least you recognize that your rant is nothing more than an opinion.

If the whole point of your rant is to state “assimilate or go home,” then you obviously do not know the principles behind immigration to Canada. This man’s actions do not reflect on the lack of his “assimilation” into Canadian society. He is an exception to the millions of Canadian immigrants who do not need to assimilate and change their ways of life in order to be contributing members of Canadian society.  

I just wanted to state that honour killings are indeed a problem, and have been documented at places like littlegreenfootballs.com .So much a problem that the Turkish government (as can be seen in one of the stories listed below) has been cracking down on the practice. The Brits are looking into it too. This should not be minimized or dismissed as an aberration or unrelated to religious creed. It is a specific problem that does not always end at murder.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/lgf-search.php?searchWith=lgf&searchWhat=entries&searchFrom=2001-02-07&searchTo=2007-12-14&searchString=%22honor+killings%22&maxPerPage=25

Of course it is a problem, no one is disputing this. However, it is not simply a problem in the Islamic world as many of you may believe. Very similar problems exist in such countires as Haiti, Columbia and Brazil where husbands have often been allowed, under the criminal code, to kill their wives for committing adultery.

Edited to add a response to Dare.

 

[1feral1]

I’m not your pal.
Well at least you recognize that your rant is nothing more than an opinion.

If the whole point of your rant is to state “assimilate or go home,” then you obviously do not know the principles behind immigration to Canada. This man’s actions do not reflect on the lack of his “assimilation” into Canadian society. He is an exception to the millions of Canadian immigrants who do not need to assimilate and change their ways of life in order to be contributing members of Canadian society.  

Thats right I am not your pal, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how I was using the word.

As for immigrants and the principles of it, I am one myself, so got it covered, so don't go preaching about it Mr O/Cdt. I know what it is like to come to a foreign land with nothing, start over, and fall in love not only with the culture, the landscape, and its people, but to fall in love with a new life, and a new beginning, and NOT living in the past, hiding behind some draconian way of life, and forcing that on  a new generation of young people, who obviously want to spread their wings and fit in, like that poor girl who was murdered.

We should never forget where we come from, but without assimilation, we have not a country as a whole, but a country full of tribes, not working together, but pulling a part. If you can't see that, your blind.

Once you grow up, and get a bit of life experience behind you, I am sure you'll understand.

Most who post on here are expressing their opinions. What are you doing besides making an arse out of yourself.

EDITed for clarity and spelling

Wes

 

[Gunner]

Let's keep the discussion civil and not resort to personal attacks.  If it does, the thread gets locked.

Army.ca Staff

 

[wannabe SF member]

The problem is very wide, it doesn't always get to murder, there are lots of cases of wives or daughters that are beaten, mistreated etc... because they disobey their husbands and all this in our fair country.
Although i reject the muslim faith, i am from a moderate muslim family and sadly, i am sometimes  brought to meet such extremists who mistreat wives and children. these extremists that refuse to assimilate, that mistrust everyone, that think they are above the law. These men are the root of the problem and they should be dealth with promptly before they become a cancer for this society.

The fact is that the problem is bigger than just the few murder cases, each day women in canada are mistreated for that kind of rubbish.

(psne of them had the nerve to ask me quit the cadets, this really shows were their loyalty lies)

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Let's keep the discussion civil and not resort to personal attacks.  If it does, the thread gets locked.

Army.ca Staff

I agree Gunner that the ad hominem attacks should cease (as per the guidelines) but let's not lock up another topic just because a couple of people are squabbling...I think that the subject is important and there is some degree of merit to the discussion.

 

[Dare]

The problem is very wide, it doesn't always get to murder, there are lots of cases of wives or daughters that are beaten, mistreated etc... because they disobey their husbands and all this in our fair country.
Although i reject the muslim faith, i am from a moderate muslim family and sadly, i am sometimes  brought to meet such extremists who mistreat wives and children. these extremists that refuse to assimilate, that mistrust everyone, that think they are above the law. These men are the root of the problem and they should be dealth with promptly before they become a cancer for this society.

The fact is that the problem is bigger than just the few murder cases, each day women in canada are mistreated for that kind of rubbish.

(psne of them had the nerve to ask me quit the cadets, this really shows were their loyalty lies)

Agreed. This is one issue that the west in particular should stand tall and strong on. This not acceptable behavior. This is an issue that must be dealt with swiftly and broadly. It must be shown that it is far more shameful to kill and injure those you care about. The logic should be that the individual is a much bigger man by being so confident in his faith knowing that its truth will lead the woman back to it and that only someone weak in faith would not believe otherwise. We must make this moral argument a top concern as it is now a domestic issue. We must stand firm on the principles of our laws and customs. If we do not we will have enclaves carved out that we may one day have to retake by force. Practices such as this are a very good metric to gauge proclivity towards extremism and disregard to our laws. Real men don't beat their wives. It's that simple. It may not be simple for an extremist to understand that, but that's where the standing tall and strong comes in.

 

[The_Falcon]

Picked what up in school? If you’re implying that honour killings are acceptable in the countries you mentioned above, then please provide facts/evidence to back your statement up. And please do not speak of the vast minority of Muslims that carry-out these senseless acts in those countries.

Edited to add a reponse to Hatchet Man.

My mistake, either you fell asleep in English class, or your just playing with us, cause your still at it.  I never said or implied honour killings were acceptable in the countries I listed.  I was replying to your statement that the typical muslim stereotypes WRT womens rights (walk behind the man, women must be escorted) were just that in the "progressive"  : countries you listed.  I was just pointing out that there quite a few countries out there where this "stereotype" is in fact the norm, and in some cases codified into law.