Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)

[Sub_Guy]

We did a sim event with the USN back in fall 2018 (or was it in winter 2019?) called Virtual Flag (I think) and we had an Aurora from Greenwood participate linked thru their simulator (were you a part of that?).

During the event, the Aurora started doing things (or saying that they could do things) that no one in the room knew they could do. All these LCdrs, Lt(N)s, Chiefs and PO1s, and none knew about the new and full capabilities of the Blk 3, and some we're game changers for how we wanted/expected to employ the MPA.

I wasn’t a part of that exercise.  I heard about it and I think it’s something we (CAF) should aim for at least 4 times a year.

A huge problem we have is we are all short bodies and I feel like we are training to the minimum, just enough to be safe and effective. It’d be nice to have our most experienced personnel working on new tactics and advanced sensor employment.  I’ve been out of the game for a bit, so this very well could be happening, but I doubt it. 

 

[Halifax Tar]

Another issue I have noticed is command tour length. It is too short. Some COs drive their ships like they stole them for 18-24 months with no thought to long term engineering implications, because it is the only shot they are getting at Command. They do not allocate enough time for preventative maintenance in the Opsked (to say nothing of engineering drills), so that bow wave just builds from CO to CO until the ship just becomes a piece of crap and is either unrecoverable or really expensive to fix. The Engineers, in the mean time, just give up or go work for a civvy company.

Not trying to derail.  But the highlited and underlined portion hits the nail on the head in so many aspects not just this.  Fixing that to longer periods of 3 - 4 years would really do wonders.

 

[MilEME09]

Attached is what the CDS has said about recovery of the remaining wreckage.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Not trying to derail.  But the highlited and underlined portion hits the nail on the head in so many aspects not just this.  Fixing that to longer periods of 3 - 4 years would really do wonders.

That would really have to correspond to a reduced ops tempo or general change to how much gets pushed down on the ship and crew; most senior people are running on fumes at the end of the existing 18 month-two year tour. Burned out people have a pretty low GAFF, which wouldn't do any good for the crew.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect the Promotion Beast would not like a 3-4 year command cycle, they have high ranks to fill with bodies that have jumped through the hoops. Mind you a 3-4 year command cycle would produce some very good Captains.

 

[Underway]

Not trying to derail.  But the highlited and underlined portion hits the nail on the head in so many aspects not just this.  Fixing that to longer periods of 3 - 4 years would really do wonders.

Define Command cycle.  Current CPF XO's have generally done a stint as CO's on MCDV's.  This gives them much more experience in the chair.  I think that more war driven exercises and work with the Airforce needs to be done.  Much of these skills that we are re-learning is a function of the 25 year constabulary missions in the Gulf/Arabian Sea. The tech and experience has moved on.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That would really have to correspond to a reduced ops tempo or general change to how much gets pushed down on the ship and crew; most senior people are running on fumes at the end of the existing 18 month-two year tour. Burned out people have a pretty low GAFF, which wouldn't do any good for the crew.

Would that be so bad ?  I can see the advantages of not bashing our kit and, more importantly, people to pieces for the sake of the promotion boards.

Define Command cycle.  Current CPF XO's have generally done a stint as CO's on MCDV's.  This gives them much more experience in the chair.  I think that more war driven exercises and work with the Airforce needs to be done.  Much of these skills that we are re-learning is a function of the 25 year constabulary missions in the Gulf/Arabian Sea. The tech and experience has moved on.

Command Cycle as seen from 3 Deck = Another CO, XO, Swain team injected into a crew -> Tics in the boxes achieved as fast as possible, crew beaten and pushed to the limits professionally and personally again; rinse and repeat.  Emphasis on repeat. 

I have long wished we would leave command teams in places for longer periods.  Especially after long deployments.  As it is now, they switch out the day after a crew and ship comes home with the new batch chomping at the bit to get going hard again and completely unsympathetic to the other 75-90% of the crew who are still there.

Either leave them in place or have a mandatory 100% crew swap after long deployments.

As for your second part, move MH into the RCN as whole, uniforms and all.  Reestablish the Naval Air Arm. Put us all in the same house and we will act like a family; vice someone who comes to sleep over from time to time.

 

[dimsum]

As for your second part, move MH into the RCN as whole, uniforms and all.  Reestablish the Naval Air Arm. Put us all in the same house and we will act like a family; vice someone who comes to sleep over from time to time.

[tangent]

Why stop at MH?  LRP works with the RCN most of the time.  LRP in other militaries is split either between their Air Forces or Naval Aviation arms.

[/tangent]

Back to the original point though, unless you have a permanent air det with each ship, the crews/techs will still be "sleeping over", just wearing the same clothes as you. 

 

[FSTO]

[tangent]

[/tangent]

Back to the original point though, unless you have a permanent air det with each ship, the crews/techs will still be "sleeping over", just wearing the same clothes as you.

In the same uniform they’d be your brothers and sisters coming for a visit instead of your first cousins.

 

[dimsum]

In the same uniform they%u2019d be your brothers and sisters coming for a visit instead of your first cousins.

Fair enough. 

Actually, that is a topic in the 2019-2020 Air and Space Power Research List.  It's only on DWAN so I can't send the link unfortunately (I don't have access right now), but the gist is whether the RCAF should devolve management of organic air power to the Army (Tac Hel) and Navy (MH, maybe LRP?) but keeping the flight safety, training, etc common stuff in the RCAF. 

Now this is an actual topic shift so mods, feel free to split as you see fit.

 

[dapaterson]

Arguably, if we give MH to the RCN and TH to the Army, the Flight Safety function now becomes purple, and would be moved out of RCAF lines to VCDS to oversee all three colours of aviator uniforms.

And given the dogs breakfast of RCAF administered and operated pilot training, that function should be taken away from the RCAF to fix it, regardless of whether MH and TH stay in the RCAF.

 

[quadrapiper]

[tangent]
Back to the original point though, unless you have a permanent air det with each ship, the crews/techs will still be "sleeping over", just wearing the same clothes as you.

Who've also, presumably, been through Fleet School/VENTURE for part of their training, and would, presumably, be present at senior levels within the RCN organically.

How necessary, too, is command at sea for senior officer development, unless you're aiming for one of the relatively limited number of flags commanding ships? Seems like something where some continuity might have more value than box-checking for someone.

 

[dimsum]

Who've also, presumably, been through Fleet School/VENTURE for part of their training, and would, presumably, be present at senior levels within the RCN organically.

I'm not sure how much value aircrew or techs would get out of going to Fleet School or VENTURE except for an "intro to the Navy" course.  There's no point spreading out training and requiring more places, people, etc. 

I remember reading that back in the day, RN Fleet Air Arm officers were also qualified BWKs, but realistically I don't see a point now.

 

[kev994]

Do the aircrew/ techs on ship conduct fire fighter training?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Do the aircrew/ techs on ship conduct fire fighter training?

Oh yeah. Good times, all round.

 

[quadrapiper]

I'm not sure how much value aircrew or techs would get out of going to Fleet School or VENTURE except for an "intro to the Navy" course.  There's no point spreading out training and requiring more places, people, etc. 

I remember reading that back in the day, RN Fleet Air Arm officers were also qualified BWKs, but realistically I don't see a point now.

Was thinking of the "intro to the navy," plus whatever modules of e.g. NWO coursing might be of value, and whatever might be useful for the techs.

Presumably, also, you'd be bringing experienced pilots back to teach at VENTURE.

 

[kev994]

Was thinking of the "intro to the navy," plus whatever modules of e.g. NWO coursing might be of value, and whatever might be useful for the techs.

Presumably, also, you'd be bringing experienced pilots back to teach at VENTURE.

We don’t have enough pilots to teach at pilot school, let alone Navy school.

 

[dimsum]

Was thinking of the "intro to the navy," plus whatever modules of e.g. NWO coursing might be of value, and whatever might be useful for the techs.

Presumably, also, you'd be bringing experienced pilots back to teach at VENTURE.

I'm not sure any other NWO courses would be of any value.  The aircrew and techs are doing a completely different job. 

There wouldn't be anything for the pilots or techs to teach at VENTURE either.  Again, totally different job. 

 

[quadrapiper]

I'm not sure any other NWO courses would be of any value.  The aircrew and techs are doing a completely different job. 

There wouldn't be anything for the pilots or techs to teach at VENTURE either.  Again, totally different job.

Was looking at the comments re: lack of understanding between MH and nonflyers - wouldn't one of the ways to address that be to include, for the former, something in the way of increased awareness of whatever it is that's driving shipboard decision making, and for the latter, at some point between commissioning and being in a position to misunderstand the needs of and regs governing MH, to get Care, Feeding, and Employment of MH Dets delivered to them, preferably by a pilot.

 

[dimsum]

Was looking at the comments re: lack of understanding between MH and nonflyers - wouldn't one of the ways to address that be to include, for the former, something in the way of increased awareness of whatever it is that's driving shipboard decision making, and for the latter, at some point between commissioning and being in a position to misunderstand the needs of and regs governing MH, to get Care, Feeding, and Employment of MH Dets delivered to them, preferably by a pilot.

Yes, but that's not what NWO training does.  Or at least it didn't years ago.  MARS III and IV taught you basic navigation and how to be a BWK.  You don't really get into ship routine, etc until you start sailing at the last month or two of MARS IV. 

There was (is?) a course called the Naval Operations Course that gets into that sort of thing after you're done MARS IV - I don't know much about the specifics but it's taught in Halifax, not VENTURE.  My info is really old so maybe they do talk about MH dets on NOC.