Harper's long walk off a short pier?

[Wizard of OZ]

I debated on whether or not to weigh in on this conversation but i think i have a right we do live in a free country for now until they tax that.

1) Why can Harper not win?  He does lack alot of the charm and smiles that Ontarians love and admit it so does much of the voting public.  He is learning though.  As long as this is the only political trait he picks up the Conservatives could be a threat in the next election.  If it is not then i feel we may be in the same boat in two years from now. 
People ask why does Ontario vote liberal and there are alot of reasons for it but my guess would be the sting of Mulroney is still tender and then you throw Harris in there and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth for quite a while.  Sure the liberal party is starting to taste like sour grapes but it is still better the S*&t that was shoveled in before.  The Conservatives have to come up with a plan to change the flavour of the next election if they want to win.

2) If you are willing to classify Belinda as a traitor what then do you call the Bloc Party?  This one i have a real problem with Is she a Traitor or using her Political sense(ego) to gain better for herself.  Yea she crossed the floor her doing so cost the CPC a confidence motion.  But is that really a bad thing?  If you want to call her a traitor you have to look at your bed mates first, the Bloc.  The CPC calling the Liberals bad for Canada then partnering themselves with a party whose main goal is to have its province leave Canada is not real smart in my book and that may come back to haunt them in a future election.

3)  Yes there is a lot of negativity in the press but that holds for both parties if you live in the east you hear how dangerous Harper is and ohhh how scary the party is (hang on shaking in fear) If you live in the west you hear of how bad the Liberals are and how they are selling themselves out for votes.  So i think that may be close to a draw.  As for the devil you know, I am sure that is what most of Ontario was thinking in the election and you know what that is exactly what they got.  Is it better then the devil they didn't know?  Guess we may never really find out.  Cause if we have another minority i think Harper will be ousted and someone with a little more charm and animation will be installed.

Troopper a bunch of apes could lead Alberta out of debt so saying that is a political issues is not true.  But Alberta has payed a very heavy price in its education system and city infastructure to have itself debt free.  Of course as long as oil is 50 or so bucks a barrel they may be able to fix it before it is to late.  Unless they do a national energy program again and crash the whole boom but that would be bad for the west so that would never happen would it :-\  As for the no tax we do pay more for alot of the things we buy including gas then most cities in Ont.  So i think the tax is built in to alot of the products.

 

[Zartan]

It's just that everyone is playing the B.S. card. If there was a parliamentary commitee on the election, they would discover every election campaign is just a bunch of hooey. As they should know, as they partook in it. How many promises have or will have been kept if they were elected? The only commercial I remember from last June that wasn't an attack on the other parties was the one with Jack Layton standing around talking about how his party matters to Canadians. Did him alot of good. Every other one was an attack on the other party. And then there were the other attacks, like liberals haranging Harper in Ontario (that was pretty lame), or what probably killed Conservative credibility in the minds of many people "Paul Martin supports child pornography" - though the document would have lessened damage, had people read it. No one did.

Quite possibly the reason for the existence of this belief in a "hidden agenda" was Ralph Klein's proclamation that Health Care reform could occur under Harper. Also, his past has been rather spotty in terms of Canada-lovin'. He was one of the people who proposed the Firewall Plan, after all, plus he did co-write an apology to the Americans over the Iraq War (which he now doesn't support in public).

As a sidenote, Alberta is a wonderful place to live. I love it here, though that may change once I start voting (I'm not a liberal or NDP, by the way - I'm "non-alligned", and will vote for who I think is best). But yes, we certainly have problems here with a number of things. Education, definitely - one of the French classes at my school has 42 students, and only 38 can fit in the classroom. The rest sit in the hallway. Infrastructure is a problem too, plus the government is taking no effort to move Alberta away from the Oil-dominated economy which permeates almost the entire way of life, too. And finally, poverty is very high. 

 

[jmacleod]

Conversation over coffee this morning - feeling in Moncton NB is that neither Harper or Martin will
survive at Party leaders - Martin made an enormous error in judgement by introducing Judge Gomery
to Canada - in the Liberal Party, Former PM Chretien is well liked and admired - as he says, he was
betrayed (and he is right) knowing the Ministers who created the Sponsorship Fiasco, they are
the bottom feeders of the political process, who owe their political careers to Chretien who trusted
them. The Party will eliminate Martin. Harper, who could be an excellent PM, has all the right qualities,
made an enormous error in judgement by trusting that sleazly little creep Grewal - who would be a
"Liberal" right now if the door had been opened. Harper should have thrown him out of the Conservative Party - Harper does not accept the traditional view in the Liberal Party of Canada, that
all the "front end" politicians are expendable - training being: (a) get elected (b) find out where
Ottawa is (c) find you seat (d) do what you are told and (e), vanish when your vote is not needed.
MacLeod

 

[Infanteer]

Harper does not accept the traditional view in the Liberal Party of Canada, that
all the "front end" politicians are expendable - training being: (a) get elected (b) find out where
Ottawa is (c) find you seat (d) do what you are told and (e), vanish when your vote is not needed.

Can you blame him?  A little disheartening when this is considered the "most successful democratic party in the world".... :-\

 

[Wizard of OZ]

But then Harper should not have used the tapes to try and hammer the liberals he should have used them the hammer Grewal.  But his masters saw this as a chance to kick the Liberals when they were down.  This blew up in his face and now he has to live with the decision.  But i feel you may be right when it comes down to who survives this.  Hey PM Layton not all that bad of a ring.

 

[Zartan]

Dear god...
PM Layton

I see...
the Wendy's lady...
in combat fatigues...
"where's the funding"...

;D

 

[jmacleod]

Layton as Prime Minister? You are kidding, right?

Layton's Father I think was a Conservative MLA in the Davis government - maybe
he is a "conservative socialist" - MacLeod

 

[dutchie]

PM Layton? I don't think so. That will never, ever happen. At least not under any forseable political climate. The overwhelming majority of Canadians (except maybe Quebecers) do not support his ideology - he and the NDP are too far left. He does have a shot at opposition, though, if Harper falls on his ear and the electorate wakes up and holds Martin to account for his party's criminal activity.

If I had to guess what will happen in the next few years, I expect PM Martin to call an election no earlier than next summer. The Liberals or the Conservatives will win a slim majority, and the NDP will fall slightly in the number of held seats (due to voters being polarized between the Tories and the Grits). Both Martin and Harper, I believe, are in danger of losing their leadership positions, as was mentioned. Layton is Golden right now and is in no danger of being toppled, obviously. If McKay becomes the Tory leader, he would have a really good chance of beating the Grits in the election following the upcoming one, provided he can gain the confidance of Western Tories (especially the old Alliance types). Of course, if we get another minority government, we will be back at the polls within a couple years again, and McKay would have a really good chance of winning, if Harper doesn't win the upcoming one.

Just some rambling thoughts and ideas.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Yes that was a joke

 

[jmacleod]

Talked to a long time friend and veteran of the political wars - he agreed that Harper would make
an "excellent PM, and take the country in a vitally needed new direction" - but the media, plus
advice from some of the fools around him has done him in. He will not "beat" the Liberals. We agreed
that Martin is finished - Party already working on a strategy - apparently what was said to flunkies
in the PMO who are aware of this was, "don't like it, go to the media; just what the government
needs, a public skirmish leading to an all out war, inside the system" - but Martin will be gone. A
Liberal Cabinet Minister to keep an eye on is David Emmerson, Industry. He called for a new overall
strategy by IC bureaucrats several months ago. It was presented with great flourish, and Emmerson
rejected the entire plan - putting several flunkies and bureaucrats on Valium. Liberal Party strategists
see a lot of ability plus business and street smarts in Emmerson, who is from BC, noted for being
tough and blunt. Manley's name came up; Manley has been in a trance for some time. MacLeod

 

[Cloud Cover]

Manley's name came up; Manley has been in a trance for some time. MacLeod

Then he better get his name off the election to BOD for Nortel, yet another sinking ship infested with "Lie"berals. I voted "withold" on his nomination.

 

[canadianblue]

Hey don't you all find it funny that its probably going to the supreme court and not the conservatives that will bring private health care to Canada. If the Liberals invoke the notwithstanding clause then I'm calling them hypocritical because as we all know the Supreme Court is never wrong.

 

[jmacleod]

Our associates here (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick) and Ottawa are very much aware that there
have been three mjor, high profile Studies on universival health care (Medicare) on behalf of the
Federal government - familier with one, which advocates the introduction of two-tier medical
services for all Canadians - it is coming. Reason, despite the NDP and Layton, the country cannot
afford to subsidize the system any longer in full, and must provide a universal alternative. This
recommendation is based on a declining GNP, a undervalued dollar, and a significant drop in the
birth rate over the past two decades. Senator Michael Kirby's Report (available from the Senate)
is right. Kirby was a Professor of Mathmatics at Dalhousie University - a bright guy - of course, in
fairness, we think he has ties with the medical services industry, but his report is based on logic
without the input of bullshit one usually finds in politically motivated reports. Ultimately of course
the country needs a change in government, and a thorough housecleaning. The decline of Stephen
Harper is a sad commentary on the lack of many Canadians to reflect on the future of their country
NacLeod

 

[canadianblue]

I think the Liberals were wrong to say that Alberta would be the ones to destroy medicare, it ended up being Quebec. Why didn't they attack Quebec for their use of private health care I wonder :

 

[limyjack]

Saddly I would agree.

The point is not how silly some Canadians are for buying into the "hidden agenda" garbage, it is that in general Ottawa is a visionless location substantially out of touch with reality.

Harper needed to refrain from arguing a different way to do the same thing, he needed to agrue for a new way to do new things. How about a new deal under confederation for the federal and provincial governments, not one off liberal deals. How about a complete re-vamp of not only the lectoral system, but how the House works.

Martin promised generalities on "democratic renewal" Harper should have changed the tome of the debate from arguing corruption that was clearly on display to arguing a new and cleaner future with a complete re-birth for confederation and how politics is done.

Saddly, while I think Harper is intelligent and honest, he needs to step down before the next election, or Jack Layton is going to beenfit from a leftward shift of the electorate.

 

[Zipper]

Good reply Jimy

I think I would agree with you on a need for change as far as a new deal under confederation. But I would extend that to federal, provincial, AND municipal. Since the vast majority of citizens are now in cities and this is growing every year, it would make sense to hand off a large part of the responsibility for tax collection and decision making to them so that they can fund their infrastructure properly as well as avoid all the various levels of political squabbling over power/funds. This would also have the added bonus of shrinking the governments on two levels to less then half, and since most cities already have representatives towards their needs in most areas, their growth to compensate would not be huge.

 

[Infanteer]

I think I would agree with you on a need for change as far as a new deal under confederation. But I would extend that to federal, provincial, AND municipal. Since the vast majority of citizens are now in cities and this is growing every year, it would make sense to hand off a large part of the responsibility for tax collection and decision making to them so that they can fund their infrastructure properly as well as avoid all the various levels of political squabbling over power/funds.

I think you are on the right track here, Zipper - it may be worthwhile considering a re-write of the Canadian Federal relationship to one of urban/rural lines instead of the much touted "regional" ones that have been the centerpiece of Constitutional friction in the past.

I think regionalism gets too much credit these days.  Look at voting patterns: the Liberals usually take large urban areas (they take most of the Southern Ontario "strip", seats in all the Western cities like Vancouver, Victoria, Edmonton, Regina), the Conservatives are getting more and more of the "rural" (ie: not dense urban area) vote, NDP gets a diffuse vote based upon ideological lines and the Bloc gets a concentrated vote that is concentrated not along "regional lines" but upon cultural ones (there a plenty of other people in the region of Quebec who don't align with Franco-nationalism).

Cities/towns/communities may be the place to focus our Constitutional power-bartering for the future.

 

[jmacleod]

When Hon Pierre E. Trudeau was PM he created a Ministry of Urban Affairs. The first Minister responsible
for the new agency was Hon. Barnet Danson MP, Toronto. The plan was for the urban areas of
Canada (the big cities for the most part) to deal directly with the Federal government. In other
words, the Mayor of Toronto could negotiate directly with Minister Danson and his people for money
- but the Provinces complained bitterly to Trudeau, that the cities should not deal directly with the
Feds, and bypass the concept of Provincial jurisdiction - so the Ministry vanished and Minister Danson
become MND (best ever in our opinion). The popular mythology in Canada is that Federal transfer
payments, say for Medicare to, for instance the Province of Nova Scotia go directly into "Medicare"
- fact is, the monies go into General Revenue, also, the Feds never give the amounts promised, only
part of the dollars allocated. Most of the money in Medicare for instance goes into administration,
not towards actual, on the spot, medical services. That is one of the reasons that two-tire medicine
is coming to Canada, like it on not - recent decision in Quebec was no surprise to us. MacLeod

 

[Reccesoldier]

I completely disagree with the Cities dealing with the Feds. How will the provinces be able to plan the multitude of things they do in and for the cities if the cities can deal directly with the Fed's? If you think we have too much bureaucracy now just wait until the cities start putting lobby groups and special interests forward to the federal government. How much more of our taxes will go to supporting this added layer of governmental red tape?

 

[limyjack]

I think one of the major things that we should underpin in our governmental system is that times change and thus, the constitution and confederation need to change with them.

By this I mean that when the constitution and confederation were signed, nobody could image today, as such, we have jurisdictional lines of government criss-crossing each other like mad. Therefore a new deal, negotiated and agreed to by all, thereby not allowing for change on a regular basis, would allow for recognition of these types of changes and allow for adjustments in respect of those changes.

Maybe, it could include a requirement to renegotiate the Constitution and confederation every 20 years. I also think that while a PQ government in Quebec would try to hold such a process ranson, such a process on a regular and consistent basis would allow for the airing of regional tensions. This may also allow for the prevention of proportional representation - can you imagine having a bunch of party hacks from any of the parities appointed to the House as opposed to having them elected. We'd end up with both radical and crazy right-wing and left-wing nuts.

In the end this would never happen under a liberal govt, because it does not serve their purpose of power at all costs - however, the party that envisions the next "national railway" for the nation to rally around will undoubtedly change the tone of the political discourse and arouse the sleeping electorate. In the end only the Conservatives can undertake such a plan. Again I would state that Harper, I believe would be a good PM, I simply do not believe he can overcome his image, both perceived and deserving - this tape affair is an absolute lack of leadership on his part.

I agree that are many possible combinations that could fall under such an agreement - however, we never see any of them, only piecemeal silliness, until the effort is undertaken in its entirety