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Harper's long walk off a short pier?

Reccesoldier

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With all the recent goings on how many of you here believe that as a leader Harper is going to wear it in the long run for his handling of this whole mess?.

I say yes.

1. He could have brought the government down on its budgetary a$$ in the first few days rather than abstaining.
2. By some accounts he could be more inclusive with the progressive wing of the party
3. He has not done a very good job of representing how the CPC differs from the lib's and therefore most Canadians view the party in the same policy vaccume that they fought the last election with in spite of the Montreal national policy convention
4. the party (and therefore by association he... particularly he, his detractors will say) has not capitalized on the revalations of Gomery with the Canadian people. (could be unfair accusation I know but there is always someone in the wings ready to point fingers)
5. On the complete other side of the argument.... he jumped at the news of a single poll and threw the party into something it, and the Canadian people were not ready for (the though of election)

Personaly I think Stephen Harper was damaged goods going into the HoC on the first day of the 38th Parliament. No doubt this has made him completely N/S in the minds of some of his party and certainly in the minds of some undecided Canadaians. After all, he can't win for loosing, when his main opposition, in spite of obvious corruption, continues to score higher in the polls than his party and he can't even keep his own front benchers on side...

He's a goner. I don't think it will happen very soon (relatively speaking) but the fat lady is warming up in the wings.

I think he would have made a good PM, but I now doubt he will ever get the chance now.
 

canadianblue

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You know what I think, parliment should vote on who becomes the PM. Before you all call me an elitist, I think this system works better and I'll tell you why. In our earlier history the PM was chosen by the members of parliment, during this time we got better leaders, then when the people of each party chose who became the leader we got people like Trudeau, Clark, Mulroney, and Chretien. Now if the MP's were to choose who became the leader instead, do you think more people would be trusting of the PM because of it, or would the country be much better.

Just an idea
 

onecat

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"In our earlier history the PM was chosen by the members of parliment, during this time we got better leaders"

when did this happen, who were the good leaders?
 

Fishbone Jones

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;) We won't get good politicians till it's controlled with stringent rules.  ;)

At no time in your life could you have held a license to:

Sell cars;
Sell real estate; or
Practice law.

You would have to prove you worked at a job, or jobs, for half your life, that payed no more than $80,000 per year (before taxes).
You would have to prove you had to pay your own way for your education.
You would have to prove that you spent, at the minimum, 15 hours, three times in your life, in Emergency, for potentially life threatening ailments; and
You cannot be, or have been, on the Board of Directors for any Corporation that grossed more than 1 million a year.

If you receive more than $50.00 from any person or group for your campaign....gone.
If you don't follow the wishes of your constituents, no matter what the Party whip says, .....gone.
If you take a Parliamentary salary of more than you made, plus $5000.000, yearly for the previous five years, before being elected,.....gone.
IF YOU CHANGE PARTIES IN MID STRIDE WITHOUT CONSULTING THE PEOPLE THAT PUT YOU THERE AND WITH A BY-ELECTION....GONE!!!
If you deviate, one iota, from what you promised or said on the campaign trail.... gone.

We need parliamentary reform. Elected Senate, voter recall and national referendum on major issues. I would rather go to the polls five times a year for my beliefs than leave it to the scab labour we elect to think for us. The whole point to being elected now days is to pad your bank account and pension, with no thought to the people who believed the false promises and empty rhetoric emanating from our, once, hallowed halls.

While I'm at it. Our, APPOINTED (by the PMO's office) Supreme Court, is there to enforce the laws designed by our politicians, NOT MAKE THEM!!!

  ;D Maybe I'm out in left field here, but that's what I believe. Take it as tongue in cheek, for the most part. It's also the reason I stay out of the political forums, cause it's what I believe and will not debate it, analyse it, or deviate from it, till my gut tells me to.  ;D
 

Infanteer

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So, recceguy, you wouldn't vote for me then?  ???

;)
 

Fishbone Jones

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Move here, campaign on your own dime & time, do what you promise and I'll get you TEN votes.   ;D
 

Infanteer

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But I don't fit into your requirements.... :eek:

:D
 

oyaguy

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Personally I think the biggest mistake that Harper made from the beginning was becoming the leader of the New Conservative Party. He should have let Peter Mackay have the leadership, and be accused of running things from the backrooms rather than be accused of simply taking over the Progessive Conservatives.

This is a leader who wasn't been able to get the combined Canadian Alliance and PC vote, during one of the bigger scandals. Also, people say Harper has a hidden agenda, and with nuts like Randy White mouthing off, a lot of Canadians believe it.

I honestly think Randy White{retiring thankfully} cost the Conservatives a good portion of the electorate, with his comments about invoking the Notwithstanding Clause.

The next election, whenever it is, will probably result in Harper being bounced if he doesn't win.
 

canadianblue

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This is a leader who wasn't been able to get the combined Canadian Alliance and PC vote, during one of the bigger scandals. Also, people say Harper has a hidden agenda, and with nuts like Randy White mouthing off, a lot of Canadians believe it.

I honestly think Randy White{retiring thankfully} cost the Conservatives a good portion of the electorate, with his comments about invoking the Notwithstanding Clause.

If I remember correctly some Liberal MP's made the same comments about invoking the notwithstanding clause for same sex marriage. But then again their not nuts, afterall their Liberal how can they be ::)
 

The_Falcon

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oyaguy said:
Also, people say Harper has a hidden agenda, and with nuts like Randy White mouthing off, a lot of Canadians believe it.
  This is what particularly drives me nuts about most Canadians.  The fact that they buy into this hidden agenda nonsense.  You know what every bloody leader of the opposition has had a "hidden agenda", or so the ruling liberals will tell you.  And it is getting quite old. Its quite mind boggling that people believe this tripe, and all the other crap the liberal spin machine puts out. 

Maybe with any luck Quebec will seperate, the country will collapse, the US will take over , clean house, and let us become Marines ;)
 

Phillman

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oyaguy said:
The next election, whenever it is, will probably result in Harper being bounced if he doesn't win.

That would probably be a big step forward for the Conservatives. I personally don't trust him, and I know I'm not alone. As hard as it is to say, I was happy with the minority gov't after the last election. I didn't want Mr. Harper as PM, but I also didn't want the Liberals to have free reign.
 

Zipper

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I agree. I think Harper is on the way out. Slowly, but gone...

Why the hell didn't McKay run for the damn leadership in the first place? Nut bar.

As for Harper having a hidden agenda. Whatever. It sounds good in the media when you say its hidden. Its his non-hidden agenda and his past comments that scare the crap out of so many Canadians.
 

canadianblue

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As for Harper having a hidden agenda. Whatever. It sounds good in the media when you say its hidden. Its his non-hidden agenda and his past comments that scare the crap out of so many Canadians.

Which is???
 

oyaguy

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I personally doubt Harper has a hidden agenda.
BUT
It's the perception that he does this is more important.

The fact that he doesn't really seem to have an agenda doesn't help either. I try to keep up to date with the news and current events {I have two magazine conscriptions and routinely peruse the internet content of one newspaper, and several other news agencies almost everyday}, and I shouldn't have to go looking for what the Conservatives are planning to do when {if} they get into government. I just checked their website. "The Conservative Party will fight for  { insert specific issue or demographic}", is the format for the issues portion of their website. How uninspiring, and it doesn't really tell me anything either as everyone supports healthcare, immigrants, doctors, accountability, tax cuts, the military, good relations with the US, puppies, kittens, singing, hygiene, reading etc...

The Conservatives, and really I mean Stephen Harper, are trying to convince us why we shouldn't be voting for the Liberals. It didn't work for John Kerry and it hasn't worked for Stephen Harper.

For God's Sake! Make Peter Mackay the leader. Dump Harper. Get some vision. Advertise the vision. Simple! Of course, this kind of assumes the Liberals will have the pall of the Sponsership Scandal hanging over them for the rest of eternity, or however long it takes the Conservatives to get an act together.
 

The_Falcon

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For those of you who would be reluctant to elect the Conservatives/Harper, and are more inclined to support the Martin Liberals, I ask you what is their vision/futre for this country?  As far as I can see it is spend spend spend on our dime, and give handouts to every social cause out there whether it is warranted or not, just so long as we (Ontario) keep electing them back into the power and NDP helps prop them up.  Supporting the Green party of NDP or plain abstaining from voting in an election does absolutely nothing!!  If you have a problem with the liberals support the only party that has hope of defeating them, the conservatives.  If you don't like some their policies well here is an idea, join the friggen party and voice your opinion and try and change some of those policies. Stop buying the BS media spin that Harper is scary blah blah, and use your own brains.  What is truly scary is a leader and a party whose main tactic is declaring anyone who disagrees with them uncanadian and a biggotted racist.  That is scary, a party so drunk on power they frighten the public with base insults just so they remain in power.

Rant off.
 

onecat

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"That would probably be a big step forward for the Conservatives. I personally don't trust him, and I know I'm not alone. As hard as it is to say, I was happy with the minority gov't after the last election. I didn't want Mr. Harper as PM, but I also didn't want the Liberals to have free reign."

You perfer to trust Paul Martin?  He hasn't done anything as PM yet, and only time he's acted like he wanted the job: was when he thought he was on the way out.  Where is Paul's much talked about reforms?  The conservative want reforms, it sure won't be hard to get them passed... Look at how the PMO's office has been out promising good jobs and benifits to any conservative that would join his party.  Paul is not someone I would trust.  I think he's only using gay marriage as way to get re-elected, as was his stand missle defence.  Really the only way to get good government is to defeat the Liberals and them show to Canadians that some other party can actually do it better.

Lets put this way if you were buying a used a car, would buy it from Martin or Harper.  I know paul would promise me it was in top notch shape but when I got it home it would break and I'ld find out that there lots of hiden costs, he someone how forgot to me about.
 

oyaguy

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Hatchet Man said:
Stop buying the BS media spin that Harper is scary blah blah, and use your own brains.  What is truly scary is a leader and a party whose main tactic is declaring anyone who disagrees with them uncanadian and a bigoted racist.  That is scary, a party so drunk on power they frighten the public with base insults just so they remain in power.
Sorry, but the conservatives recent performance in the house doesn't get any extra points from me. Trying to trigger a constitutional crisis {which isn't}, trying to say the Liberals are somehow not legitimate {Whatever your politics, they were duly elected with the most seats}, and calling Belinda Stronach a whore and a prostitute {turncoat, traitor, possibly unprincipled I can see} is past a line both parties seem to enjoy crossing as of late.
I think for most people what it comes down to, is the devil you know. The Conservatives and Stephen Harper haven't really done anything to convince Canadians that the Conservatives are the better party to run Canada as opposed to  It's cliched but the devil you know is sometimes the best bet.
The Conservatives should really stop trying to demonize the Liberals and try selling themselves on their own merits.

Not to mention that "vision thing" that all parties lack.
 

canadianblue

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Stop buying the BS media spin that Harper is scary blah blah, and use your own brains.  What is truly scary is a leader and a party whose main tactic is declaring anyone who disagrees with them uncanadian and a biggotted racist.  That is scary, a party so drunk on power they frighten the public with base insults just so they remain in power.

When fascism comes to North America it will come in the name of anti-fascism.

Sorry, but the conservatives recent performance in the house doesn't get any extra points from me. Trying to trigger a constitutional crisis {which isn't}, trying to say the Liberals are somehow not legitimate {Whatever your politics, they were duly elected with the most seats}, and calling Belinda Stronach a ***** and a prostitute {turncoat, traitor, possibly unprincipled I can see} is past a line both parties seem to enjoy crossing as of late.
I think for most people what it comes down to, is the devil you know. The Conservatives and Stephen Harper haven't really done anything to convince Canadians that the Conservatives are the better party to run Canada as opposed to  It's cliched but the devil you know is sometimes the best bet.
The Conservatives should really stop trying to demonize the Liberals and try selling themselves on their own merits.

And the Liberals have done none of this. As well the devil you know is better then the one you don't is the stupidest logic I have ever heard. Lets say Stalin was running against Harper, I bet you would still say the devil [Stalin] you know is better then the one you don't. Get off it. Why don't you actaully go to party websites, look at the policies and make an informed decision. Oh just wait a minute, that might take 30 minutes out of your day so I doubt that would ever happen.
 

winchable

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Stalin? I smell straw..man.

Harper lacks charisma, plain and simple. These comments we keep hearing about him making, would the majority of the populace forgotten about them had he some kind of delivery and charm? Perhaps.
His speeches are..forgettable.
He looks..like..my math teacher.

And I actually like the guy!
I think he's intelligent and proper but since when is democracy about intelligence and being upright and proper?
Why do you think the country falls over when they hear Trudeau's name?
Chretien had a loveable..grandpa with a stroke kind of look about him, you liked him because of it.
Mulrooney even with his charming strong chin.

He has the charisma of an angry bag of hammers that never smiles and I'm sorry but politics is 90% appearances, it's not just a Canadian thing look anywhere else with elections.
If the decisions of the majority of the people were influenced by something other than outward appearances and whos got the better PR guy than governments would look markedly different.

It's no good to sit back and say "Damn sheeple, well we'll just keep using him until they learn."
It's being realistic if you say, we need someone with public appeal and fire. Harper could still pull the strings even though like any party's politics it's probably a melting pot of different people's ideas.

Of course it's only a part of what needs to be done but with 24 hour news coverage, why not use some of it to their advantage?
 

The_Falcon

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oyaguy said:
The Conservatives should really stop trying to demonize the Liberals and try selling themselves on their own merits.

That more aptly applies to the Liberals than Conservatives.  In the last elections I distinctly remember the Conservatives and The Alliance before them trying to sell themselves on their merits.  The liberals on the other would use baseless attacks to scare the voters, the best being (paraphrased) "Stephen Harper and the Conservative are bad for this country cause they want to spend more on the military"  A few months later we get the fire on HMCS Chicoutimi, and all of a sudden people realize we should spend more on the military and bam the liberals announce they are going to spend more on the military. 
 
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