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GG Payette resigns 21 Jan 2021

lenaitch

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Why do we need a Head of State position? Currently the GG and the Monarch play completely ceremonial roles with no actual authority. They don't hold any actual check or balance function. Roll their authority into the institutions of Parliament/ Provicial Assemblies and Bob's your uncle, and there will be no practical difference to how the country runs. The PM is effectively already the head of state anyway, and if you don't like the breadth or depth of their authority, don't hold your breath for the GG to do anything about it. Real checks and balances would need to be done in the various bits of the Constitution and other legislation that lays out the PM's authority, not via some random citizen in a fancy collar.

I don't think it's worth the squeeze to get rid of the Queen and GG, and happy enough with the status quo that I don't think it's worth the upheaval, but I don't think we have to change our entire political system when we can just delete the top position on the chain.
I'm not enough of a political scientist to cogently argue why we need a Head of State, but it seems every functioning democracy has one; either in one human form or two. As I mentioned, we certainly could do it, but at great cost and disruption.
 

Weinie

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I hear you. I personally believe that if we retain the position (I think we will, but pragmatically, I’d prefer to see an independence from the Queen directly, but I don’t trust the LPC not to alter the system to their greater preference), the selection of such an individual needs to have a seriously improved process that is non-partisan as best as possible. Payette’s appointment was a horrible, pandering attempt by Trudeau at hollow virtue signalling through yet another arm of government. Id actually like to see The Queen give a Trudeau the gears over the whole fiasco, and is engaged significantly more than pencil-whipping an approval based on yet another likely ‘virtuous’ recommendation from Trudeau. Maybe it won’t be his wife’s good friend, this time? We could be so lucky...

Regards
G2G
Although I don't know that Sophie, I do know a Sophie. Should I contact the release section?
 

Altair

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I rather like the Constitutional monarchy. You don't see many commonwealth realms get involved in the kind of political instability that republics find themselves in.
 

daftandbarmy

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I rather like the Constitutional monarchy. You don't see many commonwealth realms get involved in the kind of political instability that republics find themselves in.

Well, there's a few hundred years of tremendous instability, like alot of wars and things, preceding the advent of the Constitutional Monarchy.

And that's just since Cromwell popped up on the radar screen....

Uh Oh Christmas GIF by guardian
 

Navy_Pete

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I rather like the Constitutional monarchy. You don't see many commonwealth realms get involved in the kind of political instability that republics find themselves in.

I agree, and think the current form where the monarchy has effectively no actual authority is the way to go.

Just think if we dropped the monarchy, no reason why we couldn't keep the same basic Westminster style Parliamentary setup, vice requiring some kind of additional figurehead. TBH probably makes the PM's job a lot easier as they can outsource a lot of dog and pony shows, and I'd personnally rather have the GG out gladhanding and the PM getting things done (recognizing the PMs do a lot of dog and pony/baby kissing things anyway as politicians).

Don't see any real chance of that changing now anyway, but if we suddenly had a King Charles might be a different story. Lots of people still viscerally hate him for the way Princess Di situation rolled out.
 

Altair

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I agree, and think the current form where the monarchy has effectively no actual authority is the way to go.

Just think if we dropped the monarchy, no reason why we couldn't keep the same basic Westminster style Parliamentary setup, vice requiring some kind of additional figurehead. TBH probably makes the PM's job a lot easier as they can outsource a lot of dog and pony shows, and I'd personnally rather have the GG out gladhanding and the PM getting things done (recognizing the PMs do a lot of dog and pony/baby kissing things anyway as politicians).

Don't see any real chance of that changing now anyway, but if we suddenly had a King Charles might be a different story. Lots of people still viscerally hate him for the way Princess Di situation rolled out.
I don't think Canada would be prepared for the double body blow that would be reopening the constitution and turning into a effective republic at the same time.
 

Ostrozac

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I rather like the Constitutional monarchy. You don't see many commonwealth realms get involved in the kind of political instability that republics find themselves in.
Given there are so few Commonwealth realms, its a small sample size, but instability still does happen in them. The Irish Free State’s Civil War, Pakistan’s first coup, and the whole Grenada situation in the 1970’s-1980’s all come to mind. Would Canada be more unstable as a Republic? Probably not. There are other factors at play.

Personally, I see the real value in monarchy as it being something that sets us apart from the the United States, given that for most of our history Canadians haven’t been defined as what we are, but what we aren’t... the superpower to our south.
 

daftandbarmy

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I sense a pattern here....

Trudeau government hires former Nanaimo city manager​


Nanaimo's former chief administrative officer has been hired by the Trudeau government.

The City of Nanaimo’s former chief administrative officer who was once arrested for allegedly making threats has taken a senior leadership role with the federal government.

Tracy Samra — who now goes by the name Tracy Fleck — has been hired as senior executive director of Indigenous Partnership Office West with the Department of Natural Resources, where she will be overseeing Indigenous relations for the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion project.
The position comes with an annual salary ranging from $145,000 to $165,000 annually.

 

Furniture

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I agree, and think the current form where the monarchy has effectively no actual authority is the way to go.

Just think if we dropped the monarchy, no reason why we couldn't keep the same basic Westminster style Parliamentary setup, vice requiring some kind of additional figurehead. TBH probably makes the PM's job a lot easier as they can outsource a lot of dog and pony shows, and I'd personnally rather have the GG out gladhanding and the PM getting things done (recognizing the PMs do a lot of dog and pony/baby kissing things anyway as politicians).

Don't see any real chance of that changing now anyway, but if we suddenly had a King Charles might be a different story. Lots of people still viscerally hate him for the way Princess Di situation rolled out.

The problem I see with it is rather simple;

Under the current system there is someone there holding the government accountable. Despite the fact a GG has yet to refuse to give Royal Ascent to an act of parliament, they have the power to do so. Just having someone there who can prevent people from running amok is often times enough to prevent people from running amok, look at commissionaires as a perfect example.

For some of us, the idea that there is a "government" that is above politics is reassuring. If the existence of western democracy was entirely on the shoulders of people like the PM, I'd be among the first clamoring for a new Roman empire.
 

Eaglelord17

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Countless countries around the world operate very well without a monarchy. There is no reason we cant be the same. Again just because we've always done it this way doesn't mean its the correct way. This is like walking into a bad turn over in a new section, where the shitty Cpl keeps telling you "but its the way we've always done it".

Right now people are indifferent about the whole thing until they see the $$$ that these silly positions cost. Cut the costs drastically, remove any pensions and after service entitled spending and you might get some buy in.

Right now, if you really think the GG is worth the money we are spending for it and the rest of our connection to the monarchy then we are diametrically opposed and there is no common ground.
Again what system do you propose is better and why? Just saying other countries don't have one doesn't change the fact we do. Personally I am a large fan of the Swiss form of democracy, though I question if the average Canadian voter is responsible enough to be able to have that form of government.

Sometimes it is better to stick with the status quo because if you hate how much things cost at the moment, just imagine how much things would cost to open up the Constitution. They tried on two separate occasions after Trudeau Sr. brought it back to Canada. Both times after tons of months of effort, tons of wasted time and energy, ended up going no where and that was for smaller changes which require less buy in than getting rid of the Monarchy. Again there is no guarantee the result afterwards would be any better.

Much like electoral reform, 60% of the population wants it to change, but out of that 60%, 20% want percentage based voting, 20% want preferred ballot, 20% want... The end result being that the 40% that want the status quo keep it because no one else can get their act together enough to get enough support for the change. It isn't just a 'this or that' it is a 'this or any number of different ways to do it'. I honestly don't see this form of government changing in Canada without a serious push of some sort (basically other than a war/revolution I doubt it will happen in my lifetime).
No doubt. I would argue all facets of our public representatives need some fiscal belt tightening. That doesn't excuse the current situation.
1000% pretty much all public service needs a bit of a belt tightening in my opinion.
Ya that was the reason I voted for him in his first election... Boy was I duped.

You aren't wrong though... But doesn't negate my inherent right to be opinionated and drastic like a good WO/PO1 lol
A good WO/PO1 would be supportive of the Monarchy, it's even a chargeable offence in the QR&Os not to be, though I doubt it has been used in a long time.
 

Halifax Tar

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Again what system do you propose is better and why? Just saying other countries don't have one doesn't change the fact we do. Personally I am a large fan of the Swiss form of democracy, though I question if the average Canadian voter is responsible enough to be able to have that form of government.

- Why do I have to provide a alternative because I don't like something ? I don't like milk but no one demands that I find an alternative. I also don't pretend to be politically savvy enough to propose an alternative. I would rather some experts do that and let me make my choice.

Sometimes it is better to stick with the status quo because if you hate how much things cost at the moment, just imagine how much things would cost to open up the Constitution. They tried on two separate occasions after Trudeau Sr. brought it back to Canada. Both times after tons of months of effort, tons of wasted time and energy, ended up going no where and that was for smaller changes which require less buy in than getting rid of the Monarchy. Again there is no guarantee the result afterwards would be any better.

- There is no guarantee its going to be worse either. Either way what we have is broken and a waste of resources, keep it and modify or scrap and start again.

Much like electoral reform, 60% of the population wants it to change, but out of that 60%, 20% want percentage based voting, 20% want preferred ballot, 20% want... The end result being that the 40% that want the status quo keep it because no one else can get their act together enough to get enough support for the change. It isn't just a 'this or that' it is a 'this or any number of different ways to do it'. I honestly don't see this form of government changing in Canada without a serious push of some sort (basically other than a war/revolution I doubt it will happen in my lifetime).

- I'm not sure you can support those numbers as the population was never given a chance to voice what they wished for. It was a scrapped idea once Libs figured out they couldn't get a form that would perpetually keep them in power.

1000% pretty much all public service needs a bit of a belt tightening in my opinion.

- I wouldn't disagree. Let our elected and appointed officials lead the way.

A good WO/PO1 would be supportive of the Monarchy, it's even a chargeable offence in the QR&Os not to be, though I doubt it has been used in a long time.

- A good Canadian WO/PO1 has the right of Freedom of Expression. I may have officially sworn allegiance to the Crown but to me, in my heart of hearts, I swore allegiance to Canada and Canadians.
 

Altair

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Considering the last attempt at changing the constitution lead to the rise of the bloc quebecois and the 1995 referendum, I would rather leave well enough alone.
 

Halifax Tar

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Considering the last attempt at changing the constitution lead to the rise of the bloc quebecois and the 1995 referendum, I would rather leave well enough alone.
Not sure doing away with our ties to the Monarchy would embolden the BQ.

I think the realistic scenario is that nothing will change and the Libs will appoint another GG and hope for the best. Business as usual.
 

Altair

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Not sure doing away with our ties to the Monarchy would embolden the BQ.
You're not wrong.

But once you open one part of the constitution, you open the whole thing. And then come people with demands.

And now I don't think it's just Quebec with an axe to grind, I'm sure Alberta is going to want a boatload of demands regarding the energy industry and pipelines.
 

lenaitch

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Just think if we dropped the monarchy, no reason why we couldn't keep the same basic Westminster style Parliamentary setup, vice requiring some kind of additional figurehead.

Not a governance scholar, but I'm not sure if you can have a parliamentary style of government without the reserve authority of the state, at least in some form.
For some of us, the idea that there is a "government" that is above politics is reassuring. If the existence of western democracy was entirely on the shoulders of people like the PM, I'd be among the first clamoring for a new Roman empire.
That is the concept of the State - it endures and exists beyond government. The US embodies that in their Constitution and flag (they pledge allegiance to it) but I don't think we have the history to make it work. Their was born of revolution and originally created not by a sitting government.

The reason most Canadian are at best indifferent and at worst ignorant to the role of the GG is, in large measure, a failing of our educational system.

I think any government that tried to turn us into a republic without a referendum would sign its own death warrant.
 

lenaitch

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You're not wrong.

But once you open one part of the constitution, you open the whole thing. And then come people with demands.

And now I don't think it's just Quebec with an axe to grind, I'm sure Alberta is going to want a boatload of demands regarding the energy industry and pipelines.

Every province would have its hand out. First Nations have a direct relationship with the Crown - that's what their treaties were made with. They would all have to be opened up. Given our historic limited sense of 'nationhood', what would the provinces want to leave at the federal level beyond the stuff that is too messy. Defence? Provinces would want to become sovereign states rather members of a confederation, just like the US.
 

mariomike

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The reason most Canadian are at best indifferent and at worst ignorant to the role of the GG is, in large measure, a failing of our educational system.
I vaguely remember something about the GG in school. But, most of what I learned about it is on here. Thanks to our SMEs. :salute:
 

Kilted

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As a strong Monarchist I am very happy to see that the vast majority of the criticism has been directed at the PM for his choice and not at our entire system of government. He now has a very long list of scandals' to his name. I think that it is a little bit of an overreaction to call this a Constitutional Crisis, its not an ideal time, but this isn't King Edward VIII wanting to married a divorced women that would have forced an election. Although, this situation should have been handled better. Trudeau should have at the time this happened either supported the GG, which would not have turned out well; recommended a replacement to the Queen at that point (there is no set term of office); or called an election.
 

ModlrMike

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Any of those options would have had the PM look bad. His record of accepting responsibility for bad outcomes is, to be charitable, bad.
 

Jarnhamar

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I have no idea what the GG does off the top of my head but people smarter than me say it's an important position to keep the government in check. I'll buy that.

But the government has been doing some pretty rotten and unethical things and the GG hasn't said poop. Does someone in that position really keep the government in check it, is it really just a ceremonial position, or did we just have a really shitty GG?
 
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