Getting back in after 3b Release?

[Nevermore]

I'm curious what the deal is these days for medical releases as I heard there are possibilities afoot to be able to stay in.

The reason I am asking is that I was released 3b not so long ago and I don't think I should have been. I had a very high impact job and was released for significant chronic back/neck issues that have since been nearly resolved. I feel better now and am in better shape than I did my last few years of being operational. Extended time off combined with effective physio has done wonders.

Anyways, I am wondering if there is any recourse for me to be employed again in the military given the new rules or my renewed state. I wouldn't roll the dice and go back where I came from but I can't help but feel that there are plenty of trades I could still be more than effective in.

Thoughts?

 

[BeyondTheNow]

I'm curious what the deal is these days for medical releases as I heard there are possibilities afoot to be able to stay in.

The reason I am asking is that I was released 3b not so long ago and I don't think I should have been. I had a very high impact job and was released for significant chronic back/neck issues that have since been nearly resolved. I feel better now and am in better shape than I did my last few years of being operational. Extended time off combined with effective physio has done wonders.

Anyways, I am wondering if there is any recourse for me to be employed again in the military given the new rules or my renewed state. I wouldn't roll the dice and go back where I came from but I can't help but feel that there are plenty of trades I could still be more than effective in.

Thoughts?

Out of curiosity, how long ago did you officially release? There are a ton of trades hurting and right now medical releases are hard to come by because people are needed so badly. I don’t work at DMedPol or DMCA, I’m just relaying what I’ve been told by various medical personnel who work specifically with 3b cases and CAFTG (formerly JPSU).

Your process might be lengthened and you’ll probably need some specialist notes, but judging by the info you provided, give it a go. ‘Worst you’ll be told is no.

 

[mariomike]

From a CAF Recruiter,

Applicants released under "Item 3B" who was below his/her occupational med standards when he/she released:

1.  a minimum of two years must have elapsed since the release;
2.  the applicant must provide verifiable evidence that the medical grounds for release have been resolved and will not affect their ability to function in the new MOSID;
3.  must provide verifiable evidence of experience and skills related to the target MOSID and must display maturity and motivation;  and
4.  must be found to be medically fit for the new MOSID by the Recruiting Medical Officer (RMO)

As always, Recruiting is your most trusted source of official, up to date, information.

Unofficial site, not associated with DND or the Canadian Armed Forces.

 

[Nevermore]

Out of curiosity, how long ago did you officially release? There are a ton of trades hurting and right now medical releases are hard to come by because people are needed so badly. I don’t work at DMedPol or DMCA, I’m just relaying what I’ve been told by various medical personnel who work specifically with 3b cases and CAFTG (formerly JPSU).

Your process might be lengthened and you’ll probably need some specialist notes, but judging by the info you provided, give it a go. ‘Worst you’ll be told is no.

Almost a year since release and three since I stopped being operational. I was also placed directly on a p-cat when my whole 'release process' started. No t-cats. Granted, I was cycling injuries and was in a bit of a physical mess at the time. I don't think anyone could have guessed I would be back in shape the way I am now. I feel a bit robbed with the whole process.

You're right that the worst they can say is no. I think Ill look into it and see what the options are. Thank you for your reply.

 

[Nevermore]

From a CAF Recruiter,

As always, Recruiting is your most trusted source of official, up to date, information.

Unofficial site, not associated with DND or the Canadian Armed Forces.

Thanks, Ill have a chat with recruiting.

 

[mariomike]

Thanks, Ill have a chat with recruiting.

You are welcome. Good luck.

 

[NavyOAS]

Good day,

This is my very first post on this forum so I hope I'm doing this right.

Long story short, I was released 2 years ago (3b) because of supposed nuts allergies. Now I can prove that it was the results of OAS (Oral Allergies Syndrom) and it's cured by immunotherapy. I now have in hand a letter from the allergist saying that I do not represent a risk and can now reintroduce nuts.

I went and reapply and I have been told that now it's the CDS himself that review each case of 3b trying to reapply. But he did not seem convinced of that in a sense that it sounded like a new way of doing things.

Anybody have experienced that? And if so, what does that mean in terms of delay? Should I be more worried that it's now CDS and not the RMO?

Thanks so much!

L

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .  And if so, what does that mean in terms of delay? Should I be more worried that it's now CDS and not the RMO?

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-1-enrolment.html
DAOD 5002-1, Enrolment

Former Service in the CAF, Other Military Force or RCMP

3.13  In accordance with QR&O article 6.02, Action Prior to Enrolment of Persons with Former Service, an applicant with former service in the CAF, any other military force or the RCMP is required to:

a.  state the particulars of that service;
b.  state the cause of their release; and
c.  produce their release papers.

3.14  In accordance with QR&O paragraphs 6.01(2) and (4), unless special authority is personally obtained from the Chief of the Defence Staff (CDS), an applicant with former service shall not be enrolled if released:

a.  as medically unfit;
b.  for inefficiency;
c.  with a conduct assessment below "good" or equivalent, other than a conduct assessment below "good" or equivalent that was based upon conviction for which a pardon has been granted under the Criminal Records Act; or
d.  for misconduct.

3.15  For applicants with former CAF service, the above includes any release from the CAF under Item 1 (misconduct), 2 (unsatisfactory service), 3(a) (medically unfit for further service), 5(d) (not advantageously employable) or 5(f) (unsuitable for further service) of the Table to QR&O article 15.01, Release of Officers and Non-Commissioned Member. For applicants with former service in any other military force or the RCMP, the above includes any reason analogous to one of these Items.

Note – All previous CDS orders, instructions and authorizations that provided authority for officers subordinate to the CDS to authorize the enrolment of applicants with former service have been revoked.

What it means is that your processing for enrolling will have to include requesting authority from the CDS.  That may occur early in the process or after all the usual steps are completed (there is probably a protocol for it within the CFRG).  It would be so highly unlikely as to be non-existent that the CDS would make a determination on a medical situation without advice/recommendation from medical authorities.  The development of that advice would start with the RMO, though it would be unlikely that he would not seek opinion from consultants more knowledgeable in the specialty so that any recommendation that went to the CDS would appear thoroughly researched.  This will add a lot of time to your re-enrollment for the simple reasons that it is outside the norm, not done often enough that there are the specialists immediately available to perform the evaluation and also because the CDS has a busy enough schedule that the review of such a request will likely not be a priority to squeeze into his calendar.  Expect a long, long delay.

 

[NavyOAS]

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-1-enrolment.html
DAOD 5002-1, Enrolment
What it means is that your processing for enrolling will have to include requesting authority from the CDS.  That may occur early in the process or after all the usual steps are completed (there is probably a protocol for it within the CFRG).  It would be so highly unlikely as to be non-existent that the CDS would make a determination on a medical situation without advice/recommendation from medical authorities.  The development of that advice would start with the RMO, though it would be unlikely that he would not seek opinion from consultants more knowledgeable in the specialty so that any recommendation that went to the CDS would appear thoroughly researched.  This will add a lot of time to your re-enrollment for the simple reasons that it is outside the norm, not done often enough that there are the specialists immediately available to perform the evaluation and also because the CDS has a busy enough schedule that the review of such a request will likely not be a priority to squeeze into his calendar.  Expect a long, long delay.

Thank you for your answer!

I suppose that I kind of knew that, but wanted to hear a "second opinion". I wonder why they would go through such a lengthy process. I can provide hard evidence. As far as I'm concern, the CDS is not a doctor. So like you said, he will likely request opinions from subordinate... And at the end of the day, it's the RMO at my recruiting office that will influence the CDS decision...

Oh well, sometime I wonder why I try so hard to go back after being 3b released. Guess I miss it that much.

L

 

[NavyOAS]

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-1-enrolment.html
DAOD 5002-1, Enrolment
What it means is that your processing for enrolling will have to include requesting authority from the CDS.  That may occur early in the process or after all the usual steps are completed (there is probably a protocol for it within the CFRG).  It would be so highly unlikely as to be non-existent that the CDS would make a determination on a medical situation without advice/recommendation from medical authorities.  The development of that advice would start with the RMO, though it would be unlikely that he would not seek opinion from consultants more knowledgeable in the specialty so that any recommendation that went to the CDS would appear thoroughly researched.  This will add a lot of time to your re-enrollment for the simple reasons that it is outside the norm, not done often enough that there are the specialists immediately available to perform the evaluation and also because the CDS has a busy enough schedule that the review of such a request will likely not be a priority to squeeze into his calendar.  Expect a long, long delay.

I should have sent only one message but I only noticed something after I sent the previous message.

So I went and read the DAOD 5002-01, and I actually wonder if it applies to 3b release and not just to 3a. Here is why:

3.15 For applicants with former CAF service, the above includes any release from the CAF under Item 1 (misconduct), 2 (unsatisfactory service), 3(a) (medically unfit for further service), 5(d) (not advantageously employable) or 5(f) (unsuitable for further service) of the Table to QR&O article 15.01, Release of Officers and Non-Commissioned Member. For applicants with former service in any other military force or the RCMP, the above includes any reason analogous to one of these Items.

My point is, unless I misunderstood the sense of the DAOD and the QR&O article 15.01... The CDS approval is only required for 3a released member, and it kinda leaves 3b released member in "limbo" in a sense that it doesn't specifically mention anything. The QR&O article 15.01 says exactly that:

3 Medical a)On medical grounds, being disabled and unfit to perform duties as a member of the Service.
                        b)On medical grounds, being disabled and unfit to perform his duties in his present trade or employment, and not otherwise advantageously
                          employable under existing service policy. 

Furthermore, reading the regulations, eventually it leads here : QR&O: Volume I - Chapter 6 Enrolment and Re-Engagement.

This QR&O says exactly this :
unless special authority is obtained from the Chief of the Defence Staff, a person who has been released from the Canadian Forces, from any other of Her Majesty's forces, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or from any foreign force
as medically unfit for further service,
for inefficiency, or
with a conduct assessment below "good" or the equivalent, other than a conduct assessment below "good" or the equivalent that was based on a conviction in respect of which a clemency measure is in effect.

still in the same QR&O...

6.23 - CONDITIONS OF RE-ENGAGEMENT
(1) Subject to any limitations prescribed by the Chief of the Defence Staff, a commanding officer may authorize the re-engagement of a non-commissioned member who is medically fit in accordance with the standards prescribed by the Chief of the Defence Staff.

(2) No non-commissioned member who is not medically fit shall be re-engaged unless his re-engagement is specially authorized by the Chief of the Defence Staff.

So again, the wording suggest that a 3b released member does not fall under the specific category they are mentionning.

I know that you'll probably say that I should contact my recruiting RMO because this is just a "forum"... But I would love to have opinions on that!

I badly want my old life back. Maybe I'm pushing too much.

Thanks again,

L

 

[Blackadder1916]

... And at the end of the day, it's the RMO at my recruiting office that will influence the CDS decision...

There is "no" RMO at your recruiting office.  "The" RMO is not the individual who examined you during the recruiting medical.  The RMO is the physician in Ottawa who reviews all the medicals to confirm that the appropriate med category has been assigned to an applicant.  He likely is a Major, probably in his first or second posting at that rank level so is likely between four to eight years since he finished his family practice residency. (If I'm off on that profile, someone who is more currently familiar with the RMO will surely correct me.) But he is not strictly a paper pusher.  He is in that position so that he can use his medical education and clinical experience in applying the current regulations and instructions pertaining to enrollment medical standards.  In most cases, recruit medicals are simple and straightforward.  In those instances when an anomaly arises, he will request the applicant to provide additional information from a clinician who has knowledge of the applicant's condition.  Sometimes (maybe most often?) that civilian clinician will provide an adequate response that answers all the questions (both directly asked and potentially arising from the response) and it satisfies the RMO.  In far too may cases, however, the civvy doctor's response is inadequate (e.g. Little Johnny, despite his hx of . . .  is very fit and will be able to be a soldier).  That example is of the extreme (and sarcastic) but sometimes it is necessary to seek additional, specialized input as to the validity of the civilian doctor's opinion.  In those cases, the RMO will refer the file to military (and contracted civilian) medical specialists who can make an informed evaluation.

. . .  I can provide hard evidence. . . .

No, what you can provide is an "opinion".  It may be a well formed, medical opinion from a highly qualified clinician based on a "documented" history of your condition, the tests performed, the diagnosis reached, the treatment prescribed, the response to that treatment and the likely long term prognosis, but what he is providing is an opinion.

 

[NavyOAS]

In most cases, recruit medicals are simple and straightforward.  In those instances when an anomaly arises, he will request the applicant to provide additional information from a clinician who has knowledge of the applicant's condition.  Sometimes (maybe most often?) that civilian clinician will provide an adequate response that answers all the questions (both directly asked and potentially arising from the response) and it satisfies the RMO.  In far too may cases, however, the civvy doctor's response is inadequate (e.g. Little Johnny, despite his hx of . . .  is very fit and will be able to be a soldier).  That example is of the extreme (and sarcastic) but sometimes it is necessary to seek additional, specialized input as to the validity of the civilian doctor's opinion.  In those cases, the RMO will refer the file to military (and contracted civilian) medical specialists who can make an informed evaluation.

I understand what you are saying. In this mindset, I guess i'm lucky that my allergist is also the one contracted by the base here for the Montreal area. Furthermore, the recruiting office gave me the form with those questions you mentioned to be filled by my specialist (in this case, my allergist who is also the one referred by the base)

No, what you can provide is an "opinion".  It may be a well formed, medical opinion from a highly qualified clinician based on a "documented" history of your condition, the tests performed, the diagnosis reached, the treatment prescribed, the response to that treatment and the likely long term prognosis, but what he is providing is an opinion.

You are 1000% right. At the end of the day, the decision is not based off of the professional opinion my allergist gave. It's based on the RMO/CDS decision, based off of the information at hand.

Anyways, guess all I can do is wait. Already waited 2 years since my release, what's another year.

 

[NavyOAS]

UPDATE.

Apparently this did not event went to the CDS. I received an email this morning (3 days after my initial medical exam)... The email contain an attachment called ''Generic Unfit''.

The letter says that I represent a risk and that it is the RMO decision to decline my request to join the forces.

I suppose now I have to look into how to appeal, because the specialist clearly says that I do not represent a risk.

Honestly feel like some bored ****t was pissed to be posted there or just to be there that day and didnt even looked at my file.

Imagine naming the letter you send to your potential candidate ''Generic_Unfit_V2''...

Someone please remind me why I want to go back so bad.

 

[Arbeau06]

Brief personal history:
So Ive been out for about 3 years after a medical release... 3B if I recall correctly. I was an MSEOP for 3 years, Reserve but I worked full time... I blew out my knee, had surgery, etc and ended up with a med release. I have a 10% rating on the knee through VAC. Im not undergoing any treatment for it, I walk/ jog normal just my running is a bit awkward as my body "autocompensates" so I have a bit of a different gait but still possible. Not a fan but who is. Long term I may need a replaced knee but my surgeon predicts Ill be old before that. Im only 27 now.

I got Manulife covered retraining and currently am a full time paramedic... Therefore I still lift (usually only ask for partner assist when the patient pushes 350lbs with the stretcher we use including 100lbs of that weight), am in awkward if not dangerous situations for patient extrication often enough, I have a fairly physical job is my point and Ive been doing it for a year with no complaints on the bad leg. Once in a while old arthritis sure but nothing I cant move past. Really theres no physical reason I cant rejoin. However I had a 3B release so Ill have to prove it.

I am looking to join reg force, Med Tech and I was Army but am debating changing element to AF or Navy... Leaning more AF. I went to the same school here in NB that DND already sends all Med Tech students for their PCP training therefore I should just be able to jump onto any course for the military side of it (field/ clinical portions that obviously differ from us street medics). That honestly should make me a pretty appealing candidate for the trade as that's a lot less money they have to spend on my training and I wont be on Pat platoon waiting forever just to get the course I already have.

Has anyone rejoined within the 5 years after a 3B med release? I find Im still missing the military lifestyle and the challenges as well as room to move up and constantly evolve in my field... My husband is also ex army so he is fully on board with the changes it would mean for us... Moving, me deploying, etc. Im going to talk to a recruiter when I can but I really want to know if anyone either has or knows of someone whos rejoined after a 3B


thanks

 

[mariomike]

I got Manulife covered retraining and currently am a full time paramedic... Therefore I still lift (usually only ask for partner assist when the patient pushes 350lbs with the stretcher we use including 100lbs of that weight), am in awkward if not dangerous situations for patient extrication often enough, I have a fairly physical job is my point and Ive been doing it for a year with no complaints on the bad leg. Once in a while old arthritis sure but nothing I cant move past. Really theres no physical reason I cant rejoin. However I had a 3B release so Ill have to prove it.

I don't know what province you are in.

If Ontario, you are likely familiar with this:
https://specialprojects.wlu.ca/oppat/

Might help to show them that, along with a copy of the Job Demands Analysis ( JDA ).

 

[Arbeau06]

I don't know what province you are in.

If Ontario, you are likely familiar with this:
https://specialprojects.wlu.ca/oppat/

Might help to show them that, along with a copy of the Job Demands Analysis ( JDA ).

I'm in New Brunswick. We require the same test essentially. 30lb X2 dumbbell carry, 2 mins compressions, carry back switch to 50lbs X2 go do a 250lbs lift of a patient fr floor to a stairchair, lift said stair chair up and down 6 steps, drop that and carry 150lb barbell 30 metres . All to be done under 7 mins total. I have my certificate on file. I did it with a still recovering ankle on se leg as my repaired knee as I broke it 9 months prior in several places.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Pretty cool of you to try and fight your way back into uniform. Thank you.

 

[mariomike]

, lift said stair chair up and down 6 steps,

I watched that video. Looked like 3 up, and 3 down.

No 5th floor walk-ups. No high-rises with the elevators out of service. No ravines, no water, no confined spaces, no extrications. No combative patients. Perfect lighting. Perfect flat, dry, non-greasy, non-icy concrete flooring. etc.

This caught my eye,

The OPPAT- tm 

•is legally defensible, wherein the OPPATTM was developed based on the best practice template emerging from the seminal 1999 Meiorin Supreme Court Case

"Legally defensible" is nice. But, from what I experienced, this was closer to reality,
https://makeagif.com/gif/mother-jugs-and-speed-stretcher-nSpOX7

 

[Arbeau06]

I watched that video. Looked like 3 up, and 3 down.

No 5th floor walk-ups. No high-rises with the elevators out of service. No ravines, no water, no confined spaces, no extrications. No combative patients. Perfect lighting. Perfect flat, dry, non-greasy, non-icy concrete flooring. etc.

This caught my eye,

"Legally defensible" is nice. But, from what I experienced, this was closer to reality,
https://makeagif.com/gif/mother-jugs-and-speed-stretcher-nSpOX7

Lol I've been working full time for a year... I'm aware those tests are perfect conditions. I've done more than my fair share of ice, tight spaces, shitty extrication with heavy patients down a fucking spiral staircase... I live in an old as hell city. It's more often then not we deal with all the above. Even as a student I wasn't babied where my preceptor expected me to do 2 person carries never 3 unless we had a true bariatric patient despite me being 3rd on truck as a student. I actually just got done a call that required lifting our hydraulic stretcher several times which adds 100lbs to any pt weight... We aren't even supposed to do it that way per policy but it was most logical cause the house was a nightmare to navigate.

And really you're picking on my wording. I said up and down 6 stairs. Not twice. Total. I've done stair chairs up and down several flights several times since that test. I never said the test was hardcore... I said it's similar to Ontario's and I have that document.

 

[mariomike]

The video seems to be based more on the 1999 Meiorin Supreme Court Case, than reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Columbia_(Public_Service_Employee_Relations_Commission)_v_British_Columbia_Government_Service_Employees%27_Union

You are on the job, so you know the kind of calls I'm talking about.