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FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

rmc_wannabe

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Domestic SAR is not CSAR.
A good CSAR team can do domestic SAR, the inverse is not true. Right now Canada's only CSAR assets are in CANSOFCOM.
If I was King, the Yellow and Red would be gone from SAR birds, and they'd be a reasonable Green/Black, and each and every SAR group would have a primary CSAR role -- but that would be a massive mind set change in the RCAF, and I don't see that occurring unless at gun point.
That in and of itself is part of the problem. The RCAF (as commented previously in another thread about WASF) has grown accustomed to bringing others to the fight or dropping ordinance on fight from 35,000ft. They are not a "combat" element within the CAF, at least that is the prevailing attitude I have noticed in working with RCAF members. Until that changes, I fear you're correct in seeing CSAR as a CANSOF or "someone else will do it" responsibility.

All that said I think SAR in Canada needs to be a CAF mission - the CAF needs all the goodwill it can get at this point.
We don't (or shouldn't rather) fund capabilities based on "Good will"; only on what capabilities it brings to the defence and security of Canada. If that were the case, we would have battalions of Forest Fire trained personnel, equipped to the teeth with the best gear to protect the B.C. interior or Squadrons of hovercrafts capable of bringing aid and relief to flooded communities in Manitoba or Quebec.
Instead, we are the Bat Phone for the provinces when their lack of Emergency Preparedness/Management comes to roost. Once that does happen, we're often times the least equipped or trained to support the crisis at hand.
So what is the goal? Are we a combat capable Armed Forces that will bring sea power, drop bombs, and close with and destroy an enemy, or are we the "good will" ambassadors to the Canadian public so they can see their tax dollars at work whenever OGDs shit the bed? We currently do both very poorly, and one is often at the expense of another.
 

KevinB

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That in and of itself is part of the problem. The RCAF (as commented previously in another thread about WASF) has grown accustomed to bringing others to the fight or dropping ordinance on fight from 35,000ft. They are not a "combat" element within the CAF, at least that is the prevailing attitude I have noticed in working with RCAF members. Until that changes, I fear you're correct in seeing CSAR as a CANSOF or "someone else will do it" responsibility.
I'd suggest the Naval focused MH folks and the Tac Helo folks are much more oriented towards "the job".
The other arts of the RCAF don't view it that way -- which I find strange as the Fighter Pilot mafia has a lot of lose by limited CSAR...

We don't (or shouldn't rather) fund capabilities based on "Good will"; only on what capabilities it brings to the defence and security of Canada. If that were the case, we would have battalions of Forest Fire trained personnel, equipped to the teeth with the best gear to protect the B.C. interior or Squadrons of hovercrafts capable of bringing aid and relief to flooded communities in Manitoba or Quebec.
Instead, we are the Bat Phone for the provinces when their lack of Emergency Preparedness/Management comes to roost. Once that does happen, we're often times the least equipped or trained to support the crisis at hand.
So what is the goal? Are we a combat capable Armed Forces that will bring sea power, drop bombs, and close with and destroy an enemy, or are we the "good will" ambassadors to the Canadian public so they can see their tax dollars at work whenever OGDs shit the bed? We currently do both very poorly, and one is often at the expense of another.
I agree with you, BUT, those SAR assets put Military Capabilities into those areas.
I view the Goodwill aspect of it as a bonus for having CAF flying remote areas. SAR isn't a replacement for EM/EP at the Province level either, it's a safety net for a population that often does dumb stuff, or has accidents.
If the SAR was a true Provincial Backstop EM force, you'd have a slew more squadrons everywhere. Right now it is a reasonable force based on average calls for service.
 

SupersonicMax

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Domestic SAR is not CSAR.
A good CSAR team can do domestic SAR, the inverse is not true. Right now Canada's only CSAR assets are in CANSOFCOM.
If I was King, the Yellow and Red would be gone from SAR birds, and they'd be a reasonable Green/Black, and each and every SAR group would have a primary CSAR role -- but that would be a massive mind set change in the RCAF, and I don't see that occurring unless at gun point.

All that said I think SAR in Canada needs to be a CAF mission - the CAF needs all the goodwill it can get at this point.
And that’s not actually CSAR, more like Personnel Recovery.
 

kev994

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Do we have data on how many lives were saved over the last 10-20 years because Fixed Wing SAR was available?
Yes. CJOC tracks that, I don’t have the number but the collective ‘we’ certainly does.
 

Good2Golf

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And that’s not actually CSAR, more like Personnel Recovery.
👍🏼 most Canadians, even many in the RCAF conflate Domestic SAR, which in Canada is National or NSAR as other NATO nations would call it, with any type of deployed operational SAR capability, which is incorrect. Yellow aircraft/helicopters with a red stripe on them are essentially domestic capabilities only with a rare exception of international capacity building, eg. OP JAGUAR, where yellow RCAF SAR CH-146 deployed to Jamaica to help the JDF develop its National SAR capability.

Otherwise, as SupersonicMax hints at, personnel recovery is a task for larger integrated air and ground forces. Current Canadian air doctrine (B-GA-403-000/FP-001, Canadian Forces Aerospace Shape Doctrine) tends to pigeon-hole CSAR and Combat Recovery (CR) under Special Air Operations, such that a Special
Ops Aviation Task Unit (SOATU - assigned to theatre ops) or Direct Support Aviation Task Unit (DSATU - assigned OPCOM to a specific SOTG/SOTU/SOTF) would conduct any CSAR or CR mission, per allocation of standby mission in the Air Tasking Order (ATO).

In reality, it could not only be a SOATU/DSATU (like a 427 SOAS detachment), but in practice could be Tactical Aviation Unit (TAU)/Det that conducts CSAR or CR as part of a larger integrated air and land package, where a SOATU/DSATU may not be available or present. Either the SOA or TA crews as well as Fast Air/TACP (and even TAL) pers are very well-versed in Air-Land Integration (ALI) and joint operations and how to plan and/or participate in CSAR/CR personnel recovery operations. The pure domestic/yellow/national-only SAR folks I’ve spoken with, when the tell me “we should do CSAR!” very quickly run out or answers as to what it actually is, what it takes to do it, and the interaction/integration with an almost unbelievable number of agencies and forces to plan, execute/support and reset the capability.

For any SAR-related discussions, “yellow” (National peace-time) SAR and “black/green” CSAR/CR should be kept as far apart as Lithium and water…
 

dimsum

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Is fixed wing SAR worth all the cost of moving a herc squadron, personnel, equipment etc into the cost of living hornet nest on the Island? Do we really need to put all this effort into a capability that's seldom used anyway?
They did an audit 2 years ago and part of it was about SAR callouts.

Table 6. CAF SAR Responses.

CAF SAR Responses20142015201620172018Average
Cat 1 and Cat 2 Aeronautical incidents189224239228185213
Cat 1 and Cat 2 Air SAR responses517466624760
Average Air SAR response time on RP30 (in min)282642234132
Average Air SAR response time on RP2hrs (in min)696978737172
Cat 1 and Cat 2 Air SAR responses to Maritime incident215215248216216222
Cat 1 and Cat 2 Air SAR responses to Humanitarian incident129128183176178159
Total Cat 1 and 2 Responses395417497454441441

So no, not a seldom-used capability. Looks like at least one callout a day, usually more.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Do we have data on how many lives were saved over the last 10-20 years because Fixed Wing SAR was available?

Why not ask how many lives were lost because we did not have enough FWSAR...

Let's not kid ourselves; Canada and the CAF isn't stumbling over "too many SAR assets". RCAF aircraft are only 1 part of the National SAR strategy. We don't get launched on every SAR. Most of our SAR are dual role aircraft. Transport and SAR, LRP holds SAR as a Sec duty...etc.

It's ok to have an opinion on SAR...but it's better if you have one that includes log book entries to support that opinion.
 

Eye In The Sky

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That in and of itself is part of the problem. The RCAF (as commented previously in another thread about WASF) has grown accustomed to bringing others to the fight or dropping ordinance on fight from 35,000ft. They are not a "combat" element within the CAF, at least that is the prevailing attitude I have noticed in working with RCAF members. Until that changes, I fear you're correct in seeing CSAR as a CANSOF or "someone else will do it" responsibility.

I don't know where the fairy tale in yellow comes from. Maybe you should talk to Air Ops branch members vice "RCAF". Lots of people in blue who know nothing about planning/supporting/conducting air ops...
 

rmc_wannabe

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I don't know where the fairy tale in yellow comes from. Maybe you should talk to Air Ops branch members vice "RCAF". Lots of people in blue who know nothing about planning/supporting/conducting air ops...
Not speaking about purple folks who happen to wear blue when I speak to this. I worked with Air Ops folks in both Egypt and Kuwait that had a pretty weird opinion about things like Force Protection measures, weapons proficiency, threat assessments, and other tactical considerations while in an active theater.

ACSOs, AC Ops, Pilots, and a few AES Ops as well. It was hard for my brain to understand, as a Combat Support soldier from the Army of The West.

Perhaps I was working with a junk group, but hey, first impressions and all that...
 

dimsum

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The RCAF (as commented previously in another thread about WASF) has grown accustomed to bringing others to the fight or dropping ordinance on fight from 35,000ft. They are not a "combat" element within the CAF, at least that is the prevailing attitude I have noticed in working with RCAF members.
I think the LRP and MH communities would disagree with you, as well as parts of the Tac Hel community.

Unless dropping torpedoes at low level against a submarine isn't considered combat.

I worked with Air Ops folks in both Egypt and Kuwait that had a pretty weird opinion about things like Force Protection measures, weapons proficiency, threat assessments, and other tactical considerations while in an active theater.
I'll admit that in Kuwait, a bunch of LRP crews were just getting used to sustained overland ops (Libya was, AFAIK, only a Det or two). Depending on when you were there, those considerations may have not been ingrained yet.

Almost like a "fish out of water" scenario in more ways than one.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Not speaking about purple folks who happen to wear blue when I speak to this. I worked with Air Ops folks in both Egypt and Kuwait that had a pretty weird opinion about things like Force Protection measures, weapons proficiency, threat assessments, and other tactical considerations while in an active theater.

They were likely more concerned with what happened when they "hopped the fence". Kuwait was just a Irving BigStop to aircrew (before TacHel went in).

Tactical considerations...in Kuwait? "Dont play with scorpions...avoid the LSA and anything HQ..."...and then there are the people who just think "nothing happened yesterday so nothing will happen tomorrow". The 'threat' just becomes Ops Normal and you just go fly your missions.

I talked to lots of non-flyers over there too. If I didn't see them in the DMSC, I wasn't likely going to discuss "actual business" with them at the Rock or anything. Need to know, etc.

ACSOs, AC Ops, Pilots, and a few AES Ops as well. It was hard for my brain to understand, as a Combat Support soldier from the Army of The West.

Perhaps I was working with a junk group, but hey, first impressions and all that...

Or...we just think about and care about different things. I don't really care how many 9mm rounds I carried, but I did care about how far away FNDLY bomb trucks and fighters were...
 

Underway

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Awfully Slow Warfare…

3d chess…
10 min wait to see if your torpedo countermeasures work or not while thrashing around in the ocean at max speed. At least with a missile you'll know in under 2min even with the slow ones.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Some folks were asking about numbers/stats:

Search and Rescue (SAR) in Eastern Canada​

Joint Rescue Coordination Centre (JRCC) Halifax leads and directs all SAR operations in the Halifax search and rescue region (SRR). This region covers eastern Canada. The commander of Joint Task Force Atlantic (JTFA) is responsible for SAR operations in the Halifax SRR.
The Halifax SRR has more than 29,000 kilometres of coastline. It is an area of some 4.7 million square kilometres that is 80 percent water. This area includes:
  • all four Atlantic provinces
  • the eastern half of Quebec
  • the southern half of Baffin Island in Nunavut
  • the north-western quadrant of the Atlantic Ocean

Regional SAR response centres​

JRCC Halifax is located in Halifax, N.S. The Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) and Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) run it. JRCC Halifax monitors the eastern region for SAR incidents. It also directs SAR alerts and emergency response in the region.
There is also one Marine Rescue Sub-centre (MRSC) located in Quebec City. The function of a MRSC is to reduce the JRCC's workload in areas of high marine activity.
JRCC Halifax receives about 2500 calls for assistance per year. This breaks down approximately as follows:
  • 75 percent relate to maritime incidents
  • 10 percent are air incidents
  • 15 percent are requests for humanitarian aid

Search and Rescue (SAR) in the North​


Responsibility for launching an air or marine SAR response in Canada’s North generally rests with the Joint Rescue Coorination Centre (JRCC) in the region where the response is needed:
  • JRCC Victoria provides the primary SAR response to the Yukon Territory
  • JRCC Trenton covers the Northwest Territories and Nunavut, including the north of Baffin Island
  • JRCC Halifax covers the southern half of Baffin Island
Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) SAR assets are carefully managed and strategically located across the country. These assets are based where they can effectively respond to SAR incidents in all regions. This takes into consideration:
  • where SAR incidents occur the most
  • how those areas are affected by weather
  • making sure there is supporting infrastructure
A JRCC can call on any SAR squadron to respond to a distress call in the North. It can also request the support of any nearby military asset. The JRCC can also call on nearby civilian or commercial vessels or aircraft to help if needed.
The CAF also sponsors the Civil Air Search and Rescue Association (CASARA). It has member organizations throughout Canada, including the North. Specifically, this includes Northern-based commercial operators in Arctic Bay and Pond Inlet. This will help speed initial response to SAR incidents. It will get help sooner to those in need.

Northern Ground Search and Rescue (SAR)​

Ground SAR in the North falls under the legal authority of each territory. They delegate the authority for ground SAR response to the police services in the area. Parks Canada takes the lead for SAR in national parks.
The Canadian Rangers often help with ground SAR in the North, upon request.

Arctic SAR agreement​

The CAF cooperates with other countries to cover SAR in the Arctic. Canada also runs joint SAR exercises with other Arctic nations. In May 2011, Canada and seven other Arctic Council member states signed an Arctic SAR agreement in Nuuk, Greenland. This strengthened how Arctic Council members respond to emergencies in the Arctic.


Search and Rescue (SAR) in central Canada​


Joint Rescue Coordination Centre (JRCC) Trenton leads and directs all SAR operations in the Trenton search and rescue region (SRR), which covers central Canada. The Joint Force Air Component Commander (JFACC), based in Winnipeg Manitoba, is responsible for SAR operations in the Trenton SRR. The Trenton SRR is an area of more than 10 million square kilometres. This is the bulk of Canada's land mass. The Trenton SRR also includes:
  • Hudson's Bay
  • James Bay
  • the Canadian portions of the Great Lakes and the Arctic Ocean
The Trenton SRR extends from Trenton, Ontario on the shore of Lake Ontario, east to Québec City and west to the Alberta–British Columbia border. From south to north, it extends from the Canada–United States border to the North Pole.

Regional SAR response centre​

JRCC Trenton is located at Canadian Forces Base (CFB) Trenton, Ontario. The Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) and Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) run it. JRCC Trenton monitors the central region for SAR incidents. It also directs SAR alerts and emergency response in the region.
JRCC Trenton receives about 4000 calls for assistance per year. They break down approximately as follows:
  • 70 percent of the responses are maritime
  • 20 percent air
  • 10 percent humanitarian

Search and Rescue (SAR) in Western Canada​


Joint Rescue Coordination Centre (JRCC) Victoria leads and directs all SAR missions in the Victoria search and rescue region (SRR). This region covers western Canada. The commander of Joint Task Force Pacific (JTFP) is responsible for SAR operations in the Victoria SRR.
The Victoria search and rescue region (SRR) covers the following land and sea areas:
  • British Columbia and Yukon Territory. This is about 1,427,000 square kilometers of mainly mountainous terrain.
  • Some 687,000 square kilometers of the Pacific Ocean. The area extends to about 600 nautical miles off Canada's west coast.
Much of the land area of the Victoria SRR is remote and rugged. There are few people and the area is not easily accessed. However, there is plenty of recreational activity. This can result in SAR incidents. The region also includes the city of Vancouver. It is one of the largest shipping ports of North America.

Regional SAR response centre​

JRCC Victoria is located in Esquimalt, B.C. The Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) and the Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) run it. JRCC Victoria monitors the Western Canada region for SAR incidents. It also directs SAR alerts and emergency response in the region.
JRCC Victoria receives about 3000 calls for assistance per year. This breaks down approximately as follows:
  • 75 percent relate to maritime incidents
  • 10 percent are air incidents
  • 15 percent are requests for humanitarian assistance

Source: Search and rescue operations - Canada.ca


SRR_JRCC_map-2.jpg

That is a LOT of land and water to cover. Like I said...we're far from stumbling over "too many SAR assets" in Canada. Halifax SRR extends WAY past the southern tip of Greenland. That is a pretty long flight just to get to the search area.
 

kev994

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10 min wait to see if your torpedo countermeasures work or not while thrashing around in the ocean at max speed. At least with a missile you'll know in under 2min even with the slow ones.
That is not the impression I got from “The Hunt for Red October”. I guess 10 mins of waiting would have made for a less exciting film.
 
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