Future of Government Pensions (PS, CF & RCMP) & CF pension "double-dip"

[Stoker]

To be honest Chief I think anything could be on the table at this point.  PLD, pensions, IR, housing etc etc

Unfortunately you may be right, I already had LTA denied to me recently and was told I am no longer entitled to CTA as well.

 

[George Wallace]

This is coming from a long-time Cl B non-annuitant Reservist for what is its worth. These comments are only applicable to those who serve on a Cl B greater then 189 days, not shorter contracts or Cl A.

Everything I have seen states more than 365 days.

From many on this board, the refrained is often heard if you don’t like any aspects of Class B then CT to the Reg F. The same thing can be said for those who think they need both their pension and Cl B, and can’t live on the 85% pay (as all non-annuitant do) without PLD etc - Then don’t retire. The 15% premium is for the universality of service for the Reg F, to which they are entitled. Most “double-dippers are SNCOs, WO, and Capts, so 85% is better then the 40-60% pension they would be receiving. Not too many places where you can retire (there’s that word again) at a relatively young age, and receive 40-60% of what many consider a very decent wage, and still be able to work in another field. (As an aside this 85% of a retired CF mbr nets higher then a non-annuitant Cl B, because of no CF pension deduction).

As have been suggested in previous posts, I disagree and there should be no top up, or this will create a two tiered system. Lose of experience will always be an issue, as it is with any organization, but double dipping should not be used as an incentive. Give non-annuitant reservists a chance to gain experience they can take back to their home units. Employing non-annuitant alleviates losing mbrs for 35 days on top of annual leave.

The solution is to make all "Full-time" Reserve employment at the same pay as Reg Force.  Full-time is Full-time.  The Charter of Human Rights and Ezra Levant may have some points on this being discrimination of two persons doing the same job for different pay.  Just a thought.

In my experience, double dippers do little for the unit. Before the advent of the PRL. retiring Reg F would CT into a unit, plug a position, and immediately go on Cl B, never to be seen by the unit. The minute the mbr had to go back to Cl A, they tended to disappear. Double dipping was the main reason for the CT. This does nothing for a unit, which always could use the experience of ex-Reg F mbrs.

One of two things, or both:  You were unfortunate to be in a unit that allowed this, or you have no inside knowledge of what occured.  Either way, this is not the case in a majority of cases.

Having said all that, there is nothing wrong with Cl B under 189 days collecting a pension, but those over should have pension stopped, but then should be able to contribute so as to increase there pension at 2% per year.

I don't agree.  They are two different pension plans.  If this were to happen, the Annuitant WOULD have to give up his Reg Force pension and transfer it over to the Reserve Pension in order to continue to contribute.

Lot of teeth gnashing as this is a Reg F problem, because Reserves a specifically prevented from double dipping (join reserves; CT to Reg Force can’t collect pension; CT back to reserves, still can’t collect; can only be eligible to collect when actually retire from the CF.) Where was the big cry when Reservists were saddled with high interests rates for our buyback in appreciation of our long service – nothing but deafen silence.

Many questions from this paragraph that need answering.  First, how much of a Reserve Pension would one have earned as a Class A Reservist in one to five years before a CT to Reg Force?  Usually a Reservist would "Buy Back" his/her Reserve time towards their Reg Force Pension.  With a Reserve Pension Plan now, I imagine that the Reservist could then "Roll Over" their Reserve Pension into their Reg Force Pension and save on the "Buy Back" of old upon CT.  As for being saddled with "high interest rates for your buyback" I have no clue what you are talking about.  A Reservist buying back their Reserve time upon CT to the Reg Force will buy back that time on a rate that is calculated by the rank that they hold when they apply to buy back that time towards their pension.  If you are a Pte in the Regs buying back Reserve time, it will be calculated at your Reg Force Pte IPC.  If you join the Regs and keep a higher rank, that is the rank they will use to calculate you buy back.  My advice, and what I did, is to buy back your time at as low a rank as you can as soon as you can, and pay it back as fast as you can. 

 

[dapaterson]

George:  Your ignorance of the military pension plans is showing.

(1) A former reg F member re-enrolled in the pension plan stays in the reg F plan.  No ifs, ands or buts about it.

(2) Interest charged to Reservists on buyback into the Reserve plan was 7% compound interest.  Interest on buyback into the Reg F plan is 4% simple interest.  The difference over ten years is 40% (simple) vs 97% (compound).

 

[aesop081]

The solution is to make all "Full-time" Reserve employment at the same pay as Reg Force.  Full-time is Full-time.  The Charter of Human Rights and Ezra Levant may have some points on this being discrimination of two persons doing the same job for different pay.  Just a thought.

George, you know better than to say this.

A Class B reservist does not serve under the same conditions than a regular force member. Thus, not "the same job".

 

[dapaterson]

George, you know better than to say this.

A Class B reservist does not serve under the same conditions than a regular force member. Thus, not "the same job".

Exactly.  A class B reservist doesn't have the right to threaten release if he's posted  >

 

[armyvern]

Is it the same or isn't it?

It's being argued that it's the "same" employment for anti-double dipping (pension), but also argued that it's "not the same" employment for purposes of pay - often by the same individuals.

I'm on the side that it's two distinct types of employment and requirements/hardships that go along with it - thus the differences in that pay. How come that's not applicable when it comes to pension as well? That is why I think the NDA et al also need to be looked at.

 

[aesop081]

Exactly.  A class B reservist doesn't have the right to threaten release if he's posted  >

RegF career managers have the right to say "buh bye" to people who say that.

 

[Petard]

Just to throw some monkey wrenches into the machinery here, in regards to the pay for posting concept: what do you do for someone who is trying to get posted, for years, but can't.
For instance, upon being told I had to stay yet another 2 to 3 years in the school, that if I didn't like it, then I can get out.
Then go through a squall of postings, 4 in 8 years, from one province to another, without a whole lot of input on any of them. Such is the life I chose, but not one that I believe should be necessarily rewarded nor penalized more than the next guy that also accepted these conditions. Should someone refuse a posting, there should, and often are, career consequences for that decision. I belive it should be left to that.

And, oh yeah. MCG, I still think your plan will have the opposite effect of retention
But then I recall saying something to that effect in a very simialr thread.

All in all I think this discussion thread is getting pounded into the ground again by many of the same arguments made in very similar threads.

 

[armyvern]

Just to throw some monkey wrenches into the machinery here, in regards to the pay for posting concept: what do you do for someone who is trying to get posted, for years, but can't...

Speaking of which - PM incoming.

 

[Remius]

Along those lines can anyone point to any treasury board guideline, NDA paragraph or anything that establishes pay why there is a 15% pay difference?  Some have mentioned a variety of things, hardship (I thought you had to be on a hardship posting for that), experience etc etc etc.  Because I really don't know what the real reason is.  I actually would appreciate the reference.  As far as I can tell it is an arbitrary number.

Can a reservist be posted?  Not in the traditional sense.  But i tell you that most class b reservists working at reserve establishments get tasked almost every year.  Sometimes for months.  Work in LFCA?  Enjoy meaford for at least 2 months a year.

When I was at CFRC more than half the staff were class b.  Many of those still paraded with their home units.  For no extra pay or time off.  The contribution they made to the CF reserve system was worth way more than the 15% they were not making doing the same work.  As near as I can Reg force salaries don't have a 15% hardship/posting/deployment factor.  Nor does the reserve system seem to have a 15% penalty for lack thereof.  And a reservist in class b position has 100% accountability and 100% expectation to perform in that position as far as I can tell.

A story that i heard was the number used to be at 65%.  Treasury board eventually questioned this and stated that it was wrong.  In the PS the salary rate for term is the same as indeterminate.  So the CF reset it to 85% as a compromise and it has not been revisited since.  This could be an old wives tale but no more so than the hardship reason.

Not trying to turn this into reg vs. reserve but I really would appreciate a real substantiated answer with a source.

 

[Petard]

Along those lines can anyone point to any treasury board guideline, NDA paragraph or anything that establishes pay why there is a 15% pay difference? 
.......
Not trying to turn this into reg vs. reserve but I really would appreciate a real substantiated answer with a source.

The only inkling I ever heard on how that difference was divined, partly, was explained to me by someone that took part, as a public servant, in the mid 90's with a job spec analysis of various CF trades.  IIRC it was try to establish some corelation between specific CF trades to equivalent public servant positions for pay levels. The only part I remember from his explanation was that they looked at the duration and end skill levels of Reserve vs Regualr Force courses, in particular career courses that related to trade (not ILP for e.g.). I'm not sure what algorithm they applied, nor do I think it considered someone who CT from Reg F to P Res with those skills, or a P Rres who manged to get on the longer duration courses, but rather someone who remained only with the P Res and took P res training.
Maybe someone here has heard about something similar?

But this sounds like a tangent, and probably warrants a new thread, although its very likely there already is a very similar discussion buried somewhere in the archives.

 

[George Wallace]

George:  Your ignorance of the military pension plans is showing.

(1) A former reg F member re-enrolled in the pension plan stays in the reg F plan.  No ifs, ands or buts about it.

Never mentioned anything along those lines.

(2) Interest charged to Reservists on buyback into the Reserve plan was 7% compound interest.  Interest on buyback into the Reg F plan is 4% simple interest.  The difference over ten years is 40% (simple) vs 97% (compound). 

It has been a long time, at the very least two rosettes, since I bought back my Reserve time to put towards my Reg Force pension, and I have not bothered to take the least bit of concern about looking into switching over or buying into the Reserve Plan.  As it has been a long time, and I paid back into my Reg Force pension in less than three years, I can not remember what the INTEREST was, or if there even was any.

Like any "LOAN" you would pay back to the bank, it is always in one's best interest to pay it back ASAP if they are able to and knock down what one would pay in interest.  Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. 

 

[George Wallace]

Yes.  I get more part-time reserve e-mails at my full time work than I actually get from my full time work.  This is also a systemic problem.  And yes it is unpaid and in most cases expected.

It is a viscious cycle and unfortunately those dedicated pers. contribute to the problem.  When the army made cuts a few years back a colleague and I were both given our 30 days notice.  But the work still had to happen.  We were also told that they were limiting our class A as well.  But they still expected us to do the normal admin required.  My colleague had to take new recruits in for kitting.  No class A for that.  So he was going to do anyway.  Great dedication.  But as far as the top was comcerned, the job was going to get done.  He could have just not done it.  Then the top has to decide: get the funds to pay someone to do it.  Do it themselves (most hate that idea, let me tell you) or let it fail and explain why it failed so that their bosses see that there is a problem.  I refused to do any leg work for some tasks unless I got paid. They found the funds and the tasks happened.

That is not a CF Reg Force, nor a Reserve problem, but one that has been created by YOUR UNIT.  With all the Class B cuts in the last two years, my unit has never made a person do any Class A and not get paid.  It is illegal.  If anyone in my unit has to come in to perform a duty, they are paid for it.  If instructors have to prepare lessons, they are paid for it.  If someone has an appointment to get an ID Card or be issued kit, they are paid for it.  This is a problem created by your unit and should be brought forward to your leadership.

 

[George Wallace]

George, you know better than to say this.

A Class B reservist does not serve under the same conditions than a regular force member. Thus, not "the same job".

So, my working on a short term Class B as a Trg NCO along side a Reg Force Ops WO is not the same job, not deserving of equal pay (as per rank and IPC)?  That makes me a Second Class Citizen.

 

[RCA]

The 15% differential is because of the different terms of service. A reservist cannot deploy unless they volunteer. (ergo Cl C = Reg F pay and benefits)

  The 15% is an arbitarty number which I don't think you'll find anywhere. This was instituted in 1997. Up to that time, Reserve pay raises were tied directly to Reg F raises. When the Reg F got 2% so did the reserves, but because we we were at a lower rate of pay, we slowly fell furher and further behind.

 

[aesop081]

So, my working on a short term Class B as a Trg NCO along side a Reg Force Ops WO is not the same job, not deserving of equal pay (as per rank and IPC)?  That makes me a Second Class Citizen.

You are just being your normal self again, just about as i expected.

You are not going to get a call tonight saying "pack up and go to {insert international shithole here}".......You are not going to get in the office tomorrow and have your boss tell you that you are posted, 10 months after arriving at your current billet.

The RegF WO besides you has obligations that you do not. Both of you do not have the same terms of service and since he is a WO and you are not, you do not have the same job.

If you feel like a second class citizen, that is your burden.

 

[Brasidas]

It has been a long time, at the very least two rosettes, since I bought back my Reserve time to put towards my Reg Force pension, and I have not bothered to take the least bit of concern about looking into switching over or buying into the Reserve Plan.  As it has been a long time, and I paid back into my Reg Force pension in less than three years, I can not remember what the INTEREST was, or if there even was any.

Like any "LOAN" you would pay back to the bank, it is always in one's best interest to pay it back ASAP if they are able to and knock down what one would pay in interest.  Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

The guys buying into the reserve pension when it came out got screwed.

Whereas folks buying into part I had to pay 4% simple interest for previous time, part I.1 folks had to pay 7% compound interest. And they could buy either all or none of their time.

I had time going back to 99, then a few years break, then I came back. Some folks had time going back to the 70's. Paying 20+ years of compound interest isn't fun, and it was punitive relative to part I.

The cash going into the pension is going great despite the downturn in the market because they fleeced the folks buying into it.

 

[George Wallace]

You are just being your normal self again, just about as i expected.

You are not going to get a call tonight saying "pack up and go to {insert international ******* here}".......You are not going to get in the office tomorrow and have your boss tell you that you are posted, 10 months after arriving at your current billet.

The RegF WO besides you has obligations that you do not. Both of you do not have the same terms of service and since he is a WO and you are not, you do not have the same job.

If you feel like a second class citizen, that is your burden.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are instances where a Class B Reservist is told to go somewhere and they must or give up the job.......Of course it is not to the same extent as the Reg Force member, but it is still in their SOU.......A Reg Force member has the same option,  "I don't want to do that -- I want a Release".  If you don't want a Posting/Tour; you too can Release.

Depending on their job, a Class B Reservist may very well be called in the middle of the night to respond. 

As for he is a WO and you are not, you missed the point.  Let me put in Mcdonald's terms for you: if employee A is serving customers Big Macs and employee B is in the back flipping burgers to make Big Macs, they are both employees of Mcdonalds and depending in their time on the job and advancement, they are both working on the same pay scales.  Whether they are full time or part time, they are both getting minimum wage.  Need I send you an application form?  >

 

[George Wallace]

The guys buying into the reserve pension when it came out got screwed.

Next question is:  Has the Reserve Pension been sorted out?  I am sure an Annuitant would just love to lose their pension and enter into one that has yet to be put into effect effectively.  (Brought to you by the Dept of Redundant Redundancies.)

 

[aesop081]

Of course it is not to the same extent as the Reg Force member,

There you go. Next time, a simple "you are right, of course, CDN" will do just fine.