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Future of Government Pensions (PS, CF & RCMP) & CF pension "double-dip"

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MCG said:
It is the same plan.
As has been suggested, you should go read the legislation.

Then it shouldn't be.  Should actively recruit skilled ex reg force rather than hurling this 'double dipper' crap around.  I still cannot see a single logical argument against 'double dipping'.  I did it for a year with the PS as thousands do across the country.  In my case, I was medically released but still liked being around the army.  For me that quickly faded, but for many others its their life and the Forces needs those people.  Lots of these folks aren't doing it for the money, but if you take away the pension cheques then you make it about the money and lose the ones for whom taking away a grand or 2 a month affects their quality of life.  Why would you want that?  How does that benefit the CF? 
 
exabedtech said:
Then it shouldn't be.  Should actively recruit skilled ex reg force rather than hurling this 'double dipper' crap around.  I still cannot see a single logical argument against 'double dipping'.  I did it for a year with the PS as thousands do across the country.  In my case, I was medically released but still liked being around the army.  For me that quickly faded, but for many others its their life and the Forces needs those people.  Lots of these folks aren't doing it for the money, but if you take away the pension cheques then you make it about the money and lose the ones for whom taking away a grand or 2 a month affects their quality of life.  Why would you want that?  How does that benefit the CF?

Perhaps there is something in here, as well as what Army Vern alluded to earlier.  Why is it the "same" pension?  Are CIC Instructors with CF pensions not getting the same Annuity?  Cadets are NOT Reserves.  Reserves are NOT Reg Force.  Or will this affect Annutants who become involved with the Cadet Movement as well?  How far do we want to go with this?
 
exabedtech said:
Then it shouldn't be. 
It should be. It should also be unified with all other federal employment pensions in a way that facilitates movement between types of employment (CF, PS, RCMP, judge) while continuing to build a single common/melded pension.  The federal government is one employer.  All pensionable employment for the federal government should contribute toward one "end-state" pension - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/91361/post-1109546.html#msg1109546
 
MCG said:
It should be. It should also be unified with all other federal employment pensions in a way that facilitates movement between types of employment (CF, PS, RCMP, judge) while continuing to build a single common/melded pension.  The federal government is one employer.  All pensionable employment for the federal government should contribute toward one "end-state" pension - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/91361/post-1109546.html#msg1109546

No, it should not be.  The PS plan never, ever knitted with the CF plan. So you as a soldier feel your conditions of service are equivalent to a Federal Civil Servant? Not by a long shot. You are selling the CF very short with that thought process.
 
Jed said:
No, it should not be.  The PS plan never, ever knitted with the CF plan. So you as a soldier feel your conditions of service are equivalent to a Federal Civil Servant? Not by a long shot. You are selling the CF very short with that thought process.
I don't know why I am wasting time responding when you've clearly demonstrated that you won't take the time to inform yourself or read before charging back full of emotion and accusations that bear no relevance to the opinion you are rejecting.

Go have a look at the link that I posted and you quoted.  Go read and see that I have presented a model which does provide special considerations to the service member.  One common pension program which still allows the service member to retire with the min pension five years sooner than the PS.  One common pension program which allows the PS to gain benefit from days parading as a Cl A or Cl B reservist.  One common pension program which recognizes mil hardship by offering points that could allow one to exceed the max PS pension rate for time spent in the military.

 
George Wallace said:
Perhaps there is something in here, as well as what Army Vern alluded to earlier.  Why is it the "same" pension?  Are CIC Instructors with CF pensions not getting the same Annuity?  Cadets are NOT Reserves.  Reserves are NOT Reg Force.  Or will this affect Annuitants who become involved with the Cadet Movement as well?  How far do we want to go with this?

Agreed they're not the same type of service.  Why is it OK for the Reg force pers to double dip, but not the Reserves or CIC (assuming they ever get enough time to actually claim a pension)?

Are we not all part of the same military?  Or are you suggesting the "us" and "them" mentalities are correct?
 
CF Regular Force members are the only people in any federal system (lets call it that) that can work fulltime to the extent that they do and not have to buy back into their pension.  In the RCMP, Public Service, Crown Corps with other plans etc, no one can do this.  All this does is bring us in line with everyone else.

Will we lose people?  As mentioned, yes we will.  That's what happens when people retire

Our problem is ensuring that we have proper succession management rather than just react to the here and now with band aid solutions.
 
George Wallace said:
Are CIC Instructors with CF pensions not getting the same Annuity?  Cadets are NOT Reserves. ...
Cadets are not reserves, you are right, but given the context of the statement it looks as though you indent to say that CIC are not reserves.  That would be untrue.  CIC members ARE reservists.

As dapaterson has suggested, a review of the CFSA will show you that I.1 applies to members of the reserve force - it does not pecify primary reserve, it states the whole of the reserve force.
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-17/page-25.html#h-31

 
I do wonder if I went to my next Union convention, and made an impassioned speech that made the media, on why the Govt. should start letting us "poor downtrodden civil servants" retire and then start hiring us back so that we are "helping the system work" would be attacked in the Canadian Politics forum by the same folks saying it's alright for them to do it??

Just sayin'.........
 
MCG said:
I don't know why I am wasting time responding when you've clearly demonstrated that you won't take the time to inform yourself or read before charging back full of emotion and accusations that bear no relevance to the opinion you are rejecting.

Go have a look at the link that I posted and you quoted.  Go read and see that I have presented a model which does provide special considerations to the service member.  One common pension program which still allows the service member to retire with the min pension five years sooner than the PS.  One common pension program which allows the PS to gain benefit from days parading as a Cl A or Cl B reservist.  One common pension program which recognizes mil hardship by offering points that could allow one to exceed the max PS pension rate for time spent in the military.

I am sorry that you think my opinion is charged with emotion and uninformed and that you just want to shut me up as I am not towing the line you are sending out.


The Federal Public Service Plan has gone through a number of changes in the last couple of decades just as the military plans have. The Terms of Service have been tweaked significantly for both plans.

My point is that they have been different for a long time, probably for good reason.

The end result is that everyone looses on the Pension Plans, the PS, the PRes and the Reg no matter how much you put lipstick on it. By lumping the Soldiers in with the PS you just make it easier for the man to take everyone down a notch.

At this point in time, it does not matter to me individually to me as I have whatever I'm going to get from 15 + years of various Public Service and 20 + years full time military and 2 + years part time military.

I suppose it should matter to me as a taxpayer, but I prefer that our troops get a better deal than the average Joe, as they, and their families, have made many more sacrifices for the sake of the country.

Also, my civilian wife does not have any job related Pension because the Army told me to go here and there for 20 years and she came along for the ride. (Something PRes never needs to worry about)

I also recall many unpaid days for Class A and taking civilian leave time to do Class B. Negligible amounts of this time contributed to pensionable time. I do not think your proposal will significantly change this situation.
 
Jed said:
I suppose it should matter to me as a taxpayer, but I prefer that our troops get a better deal than the average Joe, as they, and their families, have made many more sacrifices for the sake of the country.

Also, my civilian wife does not have any job related Pension because the Army told me to go here and there for 20 years and she came along for the ride. (Something PRes never needs to worry about)

I also recall many unpaid days for Class A and taking civilian leave time to do Class B. Negligible amounts of this time contributed to pensionable time. I do not think your proposal will significantly change this situation.

First of all you do get a better deal that the average Joe.  CF members get an excellent (if not above average) renumeration package.  CF members can retire earlier than the average joe. 100% medical and dental.  Educational opportunities.  Way more leave.  The grass is not as green as you think it is on the other side Jed.

Why are the decisions you and your civilian wife made the responsibility of the CF or the tax payer for that matter?  You both made a choice.  Hopefully it was an informed one.  I'm pretty sure thr conditions were all placed in front of you.

Unpaid Class A has been stopped.  If people are still doing it then they only have themselves to blame.  And yeah, part of the reserves is taking time off to do military stuff.  When I joined I knew that was part of the deal.  There are mechanisms in place to assist with that.  What does any of that have to do with the pension plan?
 
Jed said:
I am sorry ... that you just want to shut me up as I am not towing the line you are sending out.
You are quite the professional victim.  I don't care that you have a different opinion, but you are being dishonest in your debate when you choose not to misrepresent the counter arguments presented (as you did in the post I commented on) to protect your position.  It is called a strawman argument, and it is recognized to be a logical fallacy.

Jed said:
By lumping the Soldiers in with the PS you just make it easier for the man to take everyone down a notch.
This appears to be the crux of your argument.  You won't consider a unified plan because, even if it is better, it might one day be made worse.  This is a ridiculous argument.  Undesirable changes have the possibility of occurring whether federal employment pensions are separate or unified.  If the plans are separated, you can rest assured the unions will not make noise on our behalf and regulations will be used to keep service members from making comment to fight negative change.  You are arguing a slippery slope, and it too is a fallacious argument.

Jed said:
Also, my civilian wife does not have any job related Pension because the Army told me to go here and there for 20 years and she came along for the ride.
This seems a reality that could be ameliorated by allowing (as I have suggested) service members to receive a higher pension rate in comparison to the max rate for purely PS employment.

 
MCG said:
This seems a reality that could be ameliorated by allowing (as I have suggested) service members to receive a higher pension rate in comparison to the max rate for purely PS employment.

I agree. It has been done for other occupations.
2.33% accrual rate
Best three years earnings formula.
80 Factor  ( age + service )
 
Okay, I admit it MCG, your comment that I am a professional victim pissed me off.

I am very satisfied with my personnal situation, and, Crantor, I was receiving some PS pension at the age of 50 so many past Pension plans had better and different benefits than the current military and PS plans.

Crantor, I am quite happy with the decisions my wife and I made wrt to moving around, and no, I do not expect the Canadian taxpayer to pick up the tab. I tried to succinctly point out the PRes life and Reg life has very different affects on people's Pension plans.

MCG, your words are getting a little too ostentatious for a simpleton like myself to hoist aboard. I had no intention of digging into your cunning proposal on what to do about the situation, I merely expressed my opinion, unwelcome as it is.

I also think there are many other people out there that have a similar lack of trust that Big Brother knows better and it is all going to work out in the end.
 
Jed said:
I am very satisfied with my personnal situation, and, Crantor, I was receiving some PS pension at the age of 50 so many past Pension plans had better and different benefits than the current military and PS plans.

Crantor, I am quite happy with the decisions my wife and I made wrt to moving around, and no, I do not expect the Canadian taxpayer to pick up the tab. I tried to succinctly point out the PRes life and Reg life has very different affects on people's Pension plans.

Glad to hear it.  But your situation likely is not nor was not the norm.  And you said "some" meaning you likely took a penalty to do so.  Maybe not.  My father retired at 52 with 30 years as a public servant.  He went back full time, recontributed and increased his pension. 

I'm not attacking your life decisions just the fact that you are using that as an argument to support your position.

 
Crantor said:
...
Unpaid Class A has been stopped.  If people are still doing it then they only have themselves to blame.  And yeah, part of the reserves is taking time off to do military stuff.  When I joined I knew that was part of the deal.  There are mechanisms in place to assist with that.  What does any of that have to do with the pension plan?

Thanks for the straight words, Crantor. 

However, I know that the official word has gone out that there will be no more unpaid Class A.  I am willing to bet you a Gazilion $ that, especially after these Class B changes are put in place, many dedicated PRes folks across the land will continue to pony up free Class A time just to make things work. None of this time will be official, of course.
 
[whole other topic]

The current class A pay model is fine for lower-ranking individuals.  But how do you pay COs, RSMs and other senior pers?  Emails and calls daily, work on their own time on unit related planning... how does the "half day / full day" model work for that?

[/whole other topic]
 
dapaterson said:
[whole other topic]

The current class A pay model is fine for lower-ranking individuals.  But how do you pay COs, RSMs and other senior pers?  Emails and calls daily, work on their own time on unit related planning... how does the "half day / full day" model work for that?

[/whole other topic]

Currently the RSM  can do Cl  A for a max 80 days on Niner's authority. Anything hire either goes to Area or Bde for approval IIRC.
I think it is the  same for Niner.
 
Jim Seggie said:
Currently the RSM  can do Cl  A for a max 80 days on Niner's authority. Anything hire either goes to Area or Bde for approval IIRC.
I think it is the  same for Niner.

Correct.  But does the CO sign in every day he spend an hour doing email?  80 days goes mighty fast if you do that.  Or is that work pro bono?  With a unit training calendar of 37.5 days (for the troops) plus two admin evenings a month (12 days) plus four weekends for Bde functions (10 days) the CO's already at 59.5 days for the year...
 
Crantor said:
Glad to hear it.  But your situation likely is not nor was not the norm.  And you said "some" meaning you likely took a penalty to do so.  Maybe not.  My father retired at 52 with 30 years as a public servant.  He went back full time, recontributed and increased his pension. 

I'm not attacking your life decisions just the fact that you are using that as an argument to support your position.

This is sweet. He has done exactly as you do. Using an example to support his side of the fence in the matter. His is irrelevant or "unusual" no more than any other situation is irrelevant or unusual. So your dad did one thing and he did another, what makes either of you wrong - or right?

Down here, you said:

Crantor said:
Our problem is ensuring that we have proper succession management rather than just react to the here and now with band aid solutions.

Guess what this band aid will do? It will moved desperately required skill workers to another sector. It will do nothing to ensure that RegF positions (that sp both Reg & Res F trg) are filled in pri 6 locations with boots on the ground rather than too many staff pers making too many powerpoints in too many HQs. So let's start there and actually tourinquette the problem, cut if off and then heal so that we don't need the band-aids on our toes constantly.

____________________

From my point of view, there is nothing wrong with the Feds acknowledging or recognizing the fact that CF members make choices that benefit their nation at the expense of better financial stability for themselves and their families. So yes, while mama and her soldier may have made the "choice" to pack up and move across the nation at the behest of Canada (my own mama being one of those who has worked her butt off her whole life and will continue to do so as she's never been able to pension down due to my father's duties), I find it a little perturbing that you'd actually come on here and state, "too bad, you made your bed so lay in it" for that is, in other words, exactly what you have done.

Who gives you the right? This is a soldier who did exactly his job and what his duty and nation required of him. You then hold him to account because he did exactly that? Wow. Because he and his family sacrificed his wife's stability for the nation? It is a fact of service in the CF (unfortunately for far too few of us these days) that this will occur and there is zero wrong with consideration of such future financial sacrifice in any decision making by the powers that be.

Which leads to another point: all these people posted for years upon years to the same location need to be packed up and posted. It should be routine. I know a pers (me) who couldn't get posted where her spouse was because there were "none avail", yet a mbr same trade/rank had been sitting there 14 damn years. 14. And, that mbr did not move that year (or the next). 23 years in, and I have done 10 physical geographical moves at the behest of this nation (and, a bunch of times because no one else would move to the spot ['cause their own wife had a good job, whatever, yadda yadda yadda]). It's a good damn thing that I am not married to a civilian as they'd never be able to get a job with all those moves let alone a pension. So, I did my job just as the other poster did his job. Nice choice. I'm here to tell you, you are way out of line as the people you are speaking to are the very people who do their duty to this country as per the job description.
 
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