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Future Helicopters

An interesting 2021 video from Bell and the RCAF on the GLLE project

Stripping the analog CH-146 - adding the EPI Glass Cockpit and Digital Engine, integrating the INGRESS EO/IR and Mission Management System moving map, bringing all the nav, comms and avionics up to current civil and military standards and militarizing the whole shebang.

In other words the only thing left is likely to be the tail number

The aircraft will be redesignated as the CH-146C Griffon MkII.

'Jack up the horn and slide a new car under it'. It seems to me it would be cheaper in the long run to just buy new. It's like those guys who put $1000 fancy wheels on a 10 year old Honda Civic.
 
'Jack up the horn and slide a new car under it'. It seems to me it would be cheaper in the long run to just buy new. It's like those guys who put $1000 fancy wheels on a 10 year old Honda Civic.

But then where would the British, French, Italian, German, Spanish, Czech, Slovak, Polish and Bulgarian defence industries be. Or for that matter the Americans.
 
'Jack up the horn and slide a new car under it'. It seems to me it would be cheaper in the long run to just buy new. It's like those guys who put $1000 fancy wheels on a 10 year old Honda Civic.
Because you can't buy new butvyou can upgrade old....by just saving the number plate and a screw or so. LAV UP, the Cormorant now, the twin otter will be the same etc etc.

It shows what a total cluster that procurement is in this country.
 
Question for group.


The Iraq Air Force to replace Mil 17 with Bell products. 412EP, 407M and the 505. These are all made in Canada. But are made in Texas at the Bell military plant or just kind of finished there? It's is a FMS sale so gov to gov so they would want US content. And Bell doesn't need another Philippines situation from Trudeau. I bet even if made mostly in Canada the Trudeau gov would love work but lkle the US it take the responsibility.

What's engines quesses on this one if do happen?

And overtime conspiracy question do you think the US wants the Mil 17's for Ukraine?
 
'Jack up the horn and slide a new car under it'. It seems to me it would be cheaper in the long run to just buy new. It's like those guys who put $1000 fancy wheels on a 10 year old Honda Civic.
Often the Airframe is still in good shape and can be brought up to better then new status and makes it cheaper to convert then build a new aircraft. One reason why Twin Otters and Beavers have been overhauled and in such high demand buying a used airframe overhauling and upgrading is cheaper then buying a new similar aircraft.
Because you can't buy new butvyou can upgrade old....by just saving the number plate and a screw or so. LAV UP, the Cormorant now, the twin otter will be the same etc etc.

It shows what a total cluster that procurement is in this country.
Yes and no budgets aside money from here and money from there is often the same money, but overhauling a existing a shell is usually cheaper then building a new structure.
 
Often the Airframe is still in good shape and can be brought up to better then new status and makes it cheaper to convert then build a new aircraft. One reason why Twin Otters and Beavers have been overhauled and in such high demand buying a used airframe overhauling and upgrading is cheaper then buying a new similar aircraft.

Yes and no budgets aside money from here and money from there is often the same money, but overhauling a existing a shell is usually cheaper then building a new structure.
In most cases with DND and the government can not run a procurement project. So it is "upgrade" the current the system in that is "Ship of thesus" or your Grandfather's axe. Which major capital project for new equipment using the current system has gone right? I can't even name one. Trucks maybe. FWSAR...had to be rerun and doesn't even work yet. F-35 enough said. Yes the UOR's from the Harper years worked but they were not the normal system.

And I would put to you it is not cheaper to keep the shell. Steel or Aluminum is the cheapest part of a modern weapon system. Now if you talking about the whole system from training to warehousing to comissioning then you sometimes have a point.

The whole reason the CH149 was an upgrade is because they can not run a competition. Starting with even get treasury board approval to start. And how much of an upgrade is it when you are getting new airframes. LOL Grandfather's axe.
 
In most cases with DND and the government can not run a procurement project. So it is "upgrade" the current the system in that is "Ship of thesus" or your Grandfather's axe. Which major capital project for new equipment using the current system has gone right? I can't even name one. Trucks maybe. FWSAR...had to be rerun and doesn't even work yet. F-35 enough said. Yes the UOR's from the Harper years worked but they were not the normal system.

And I would put to you it is not cheaper to keep the shell. Steel or Aluminum is the cheapest part of a modern weapon system. Now if you talking about the whole system from training to warehousing to comissioning then you sometimes have a point.

The whole reason the CH149 was an upgrade is because they can not run a competition. Starting with even get treasury board approval to start. And how much of an upgrade is it when you are getting new airframes. LOL Grandfather's axe.
I know when we rebuilt Beaver Aircraft their airframe, wings, floats and engines were better them new and also came in significantly cheaper then what a new system would cost.
The Avionics system cost was significantly more compared to the original setup. They went from analog to glass screens
Airframe and bodies are not as cheap as one would think. Plus when you look at the cost to build new compared to overhaul the price difference is significant. The issue we have is if we are getting a zero time system or a high hour well inspected system.
 
Often the Airframe is still in good shape and can be brought up to better then new status and makes it cheaper to convert then build a new aircraft. One reason why Twin Otters and Beavers have been overhauled and in such high demand buying a used airframe overhauling and upgrading is cheaper then buying a new similar aircraft.
Which is fine, so long as the characteristics and capabilities of the original (or upgraded) platform are acceptable. Otherwise, you get a modern version of something that is still substandard.
 
Which is fine, so long as the characteristics and capabilities of the original (or upgraded) platform are acceptable. Otherwise, you get a modern version of something that is still substandard.
But my point about the CH149 Lockheed said they could have deliveried new Blackhawks based on a downgraded CSAR version they are making cheaper than Leonardo's upgrade. If they had run an open competition their could have been different options. The inability of the government to run a procurement process leaves it to the "upgrade" option. They can no bid this as the IP is owned by the OEM. It's the whole reason for these upgrades because of the broken system.

Upgrade the Twin Otter because replacing them opens a can of worms etc etc etc
 
Which is fine, so long as the characteristics and capabilities of the original (or upgraded) platform are acceptable. Otherwise, you get a modern version of something that is still substandard.
Hopefully they do a proper job. If not it will be Canadianized and only partially done.
 
But my point about the CH149 Lockheed said they could have deliveried new Blackhawks based on a downgraded CSAR version they are making cheaper than Leonardo's upgrade. If they had run an open competition their could have been different options. The inability of the government to run a procurement process leaves it to the "upgrade" option. They can no bid this as the IP is owned by the OEM. It's the whole reason for these upgrades because of the broken system.

Upgrade the Twin Otter because replacing them opens a can of worms etc etc etc
The HH60/ variant was not a fit for the requirement we wanted due to payload, range and rear ramp etc, also did not fit the requirement for our ship borne helos. It may have been a good choice but it also did not full fill all the requirements.
 
The HH60/ variant was not a fit for the requirement we wanted due to payload, range and rear ramp etc, also did not fit the requirement for our ship borne helos. It may have been a good choice but it also did not full fill all the requirements.
We don't know there was not a RFP or competitive process which is my whole point. Who knows maybe a Bell 515 or S92 could made the grade. The whole procurement process is broken. So the only thing working is "upgrade" the Ship of Theseus plan because that kind of works.
 
We don't know there was not a RFP or competitive process which is my whole point. Who knows maybe a Bell 515 or S92 could made the grade. The whole procurement process is broken. So the only thing working is "upgrade" the Ship of Theseus plan because that kind of works.
There is no need for a RFP or even competitve bid. No one else is set up to perform the mid life extension without massive investment.
Your not going to have Eurocopter overhauling our S92s.
L3 Boeing does our F18 maintance again we are not going to bid that out to Airbus. (OK maybe)

We choose the Cormorant as our SAR bird so we stick with that until the end of its life cycle in another 50 Years until a replacement is desired.
 
The HH60/ variant was not a fit for the requirement we wanted due to payload, range and rear ramp etc, also did not fit the requirement for our ship borne helos. It may have been a good choice but it also did not full fill all the requirements.
Because theoretical advantages are what Canadians are all about.
I mean why get 2:1 airframes on a 80% capability that could give 100% readiness, when you could get not enough airframes to even run 80% of the airframes reliably ;)
 
Because theoretical advantages are what Canadians are all about.
I mean why get 2:1 airframes on a 80% capability that could give 100% readiness, when you could get not enough airframes to even run 80% of the airframes reliably ;)
To be fair we don't have the Techs to fix any more A/C nor the Pilots to fly them. Maybe the gov did some foreshadowing spend more(cough cough kickbacks) for fewer platforms we can staff.

Why buy off the shelf Proven verse lots of problems not suitable for marine environment.
 

Tick Tock.
And there it is.


It's going to be Tiltrotors.

I still feel this is best for the overall supply base. Both Lockheed and Beoing need timeouts.

Bell being Canada's helicopter maker bodes well for future Tiltrotors in tbe RCAF.

If I was the minister....my next call would be to the US and the Company. Tell them congrats about Bell....we want in. Call Quebec Inc...tell them to turn on the PR machine.

Then call a presser....say we have a poor history with helicopter buying butvthis is the new plan. We are getting on the ground floor of this new product. Jobs Jobs.

Then call Airbus.....tell them you be quiet. Here have something. We will buy some A400s to replace the C130 we need because you screwed up the FWSAR. Or something like that. Just don't bitch about the Bell deal.

Then call Lockheed you be quite too.

Then Boeing.....quiet we are letting you out of the dog house

Then you just send Leonardo an email....with the message just don't.
 
You forgot one thing: The current budget has almost no additional dollars for the CAF. Crtical operational deficits are being fixed over a period of 14 years. We're not going to get into the ground floor of anything, we'll be trying to rent a room in a building that's being torn down.
 
You forgot one thing: The current budget has almost no additional dollars for the CAF. Crtical operational deficits are being fixed over a period of 14 years. We're not going to get into the ground floor of anything, we'll be trying to rent a room in a building that's being torn down.

OH sorry you thought I meant spend money....lol...I am Canadian.

No you announce the deal with US army and Bell....that in the future you are buying this thing.

Then send some R&D money....there is always ways to get that.

Get the industry supplier team with Bell for the sub contracts going. We in reality have good companies that can supply. Plus the run of this thing would be god send to some. They will put their money into.

Win win...

Remember in the end if the CAF gets something real that more of a secondary benefit. But this will increase the odds.
 
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