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Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

torg003

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You're probably correct, Quebec would be against losing any bit of territory (unless they were compensated somehow).
 

Good2Golf

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FWIW, administration of justice (including law enforcement) remains the constitutional responsibility of the province. Also, municipalities do not exercise operational control over police services. The police services are arms length from the municipal (and provincial) governments. It’s reasonable to look first to senior police leadership in any given jurisdiction for why something happened or didn’t).
👍🏼

Which is why my earlier nite about Windsor referred to Windsor (WPS was assumed, I had explicitly noted WPS previously, but should have included it explicitly in my list recent post), with assistance as required/requested of the Province.

OPS clearly had some internal issues, but I would also note that it would be naive for people to believe that the factor added by the PM’s and other higher levels of government, didn’t make the OPS’ task particularly less difficult.
 

brihard

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👍🏼

Which is why my earlier nite about Windsor referred to Windsor (WPS was assumed, I had explicitly noted WPS previously, but should have included it explicitly in my list recent post), with assistance as required/requested of the Province.

OPS clearly had some internal issues, but I would also note that it would be naive for people to believe that the factor added by the PM’s and other higher levels of government, didn’t make the OPS’ task particularly less difficult.
Yup. When it came time for Windsor Police to actually execute a plan, they did so and they had help. OPP and RCMP were also present and helping with the public order response. They saw the issue and they acted.
 

OldSolduer

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Yup. When it came time for Windsor Police to actually execute a plan, they did so and they had help. OPP and RCMP were also present and helping with the public order response. They saw the issue and they acted.
I was not impressed with the Ottawa chief - the one that got fired.
 

OldSolduer

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Nobody was.

Apparently he wrote something recently explaining his (in)actions. I need to find it.
I always got the impression he was in over his head and did not have the sense to realize it. Plus the briefs always sounded like the OPS was taking Juno Beach again.
 

Booter

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I’m watching this stuff because I still don’t understand- beyond the banking stuff how this couldn’t have been dealt with without this EA stuff. I think Brihard tried explaining it and I didn’t get it then either- he knows much better than I do.

I only know the stuff I’ve done that didn’t need expanded authorities. Maybe I’ll do some googling.
 

brihard

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I’m watching this stuff because I still don’t understand- beyond the banking stuff how this couldn’t have been dealt with without this EA stuff. I think Brihard tried explaining it and I didn’t get it then either- he knows much better than I do.

I only know the stuff I’ve done that didn’t need expanded authorities. Maybe I’ll do some googling.
I can’t and haven’t spoken to anything close to all of it- just that there was no lack of enforcement authorities. From the moment the first car blocked the first street, police had all necessary legal authority to physically remove it and to charge the driver. The situation escalated to criminal mischief very quickly, but police were super lenient in enforcing this.

The emergencies act allowed for other things, particularly financial ‘sanctions’, for lack of a better term, and compelling banks to act against the accounts of those they could identify as being involved. Much more savvy people than I are spending a lot of time looking at that. Jess Marin Davis is a good security analyst to follow on this matter.

I don’t know what the reality of the situation was in terms of trying to procure tow services, or how critical the EA was to essentially conscript towing capacity. In the end, most of the trucks turned and ran at the eleventh hour and fifty ninth minute - I remember nervously watching some start up and wondering if they were going to drive at us or back away - but the sudden caving of most of the parked truck drivers could not have been predicted or relied upon. I don’t know if the necessary kit and capabilities could have been brought to bear otherwise, except for calling in CAF for its wreckers. CAF aid to civil power vs EA to compel tow services is an ugly optics dilemma I wouldn’t personally want to have to contend with. Given the now proven utility of parked trucks as acts of criminal mischief in the course of a disruptive protest, I think it would be wise for the province and some of the cities to quietly maintain a modest inventory of heavy wreckers.

There will be a lot of wrangling and gnashing of teeth over how much information regarding the Emergencies Act decision is shared; how; when; and in which forum. I don’t know enough at present to be able to give an informed take on what information should be public and what should not. And of course, we know some of what we don’t know (E.g., without a doubt there was security intelligence informing the response, but we don’t know what), and there’s also ‘don’t know’ that we don’t know we don’t know. Most of it will eventually come out in the wash, I expect. I’m sure everyone with strong feelings on the matter will have their minds made up in time for the next election.
 

Jarnhamar

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Remember the semi-secret protestor head quarters off a few kilometers away in some parking lot with scary organized looking big men and defensive perimeters?

Very nefarious. I was expecting a violent siege and shootout. Luckily that just disappeared.
 
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Booter

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I can’t and haven’t spoken to anything close to all of it- just that there was no lack of enforcement authorities. From the moment the first car blocked the first street, police had all necessary legal authority to physically remove it and to charge the driver. The situation escalated to criminal mischief very quickly, but police were super lenient in enforcing this.

The emergencies act allowed for other things, particularly financial ‘sanctions’, for lack of a better term, and compelling banks to act against the accounts of those they could identify as being involved. Much more savvy people than I are spending a lot of time looking at that. Jess Marin Davis is a good security analyst to follow on this matter.

I don’t know what the reality of the situation was in terms of trying to procure tow services, or how critical the EA was to essentially conscript towing capacity. In the end, most of the trucks turned and ran at the eleventh hour and fifty ninth minute - I remember nervously watching some start up and wondering if they were going to drive at us or back away - but the sudden caving of most of the parked truck drivers could not have been predicted or relied upon. I don’t know if the necessary kit and capabilities could have been brought to bear otherwise, except for calling in CAF for its wreckers. CAF aid to civil power vs EA to compel tow services is an ugly optics dilemma I wouldn’t personally want to have to contend with. Given the now proven utility of parked trucks as acts of criminal mischief in the course of a disruptive protest, I think it would be wise for the province and some of the cities to quietly maintain a modest inventory of heavy wreckers.

There will be a lot of wrangling and gnashing of teeth over how much information regarding the Emergencies Act decision is shared; how; when; and in which forum. I don’t know enough at present to be able to give an informed take on what information should be public and what should not. And of course, we know some of what we don’t know (E.g., without a doubt there was security intelligence informing the response, but we don’t know what), and there’s also ‘don’t know’ that we don’t know we don’t know. Most of it will eventually come out in the wash, I expect. I’m sure everyone with strong feelings on the matter will have their minds made up in time for the next election.
That’s my mistake then. I apologize. I assumed there was a nuance I wasn’t tracking and I thought you had said something.
 

QV

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“Criminal mischief, criminal mischief”

“If you repeat it, if you say it louder, if that’s your talking point, people will totally believe it!”

Even the judge ruling on the honking said the peaceful protests could continue. Protests are meant to be inconvenient. The upper crust of downtown Ottawa and the mandarins working there aren’t used to being inconvenienced like that and were likely shocked and highly offended to see the level of support against the mandates etc.

Hey, did we get to the bottom of the domestic terror attack on Coastal Gaslink yet?
 

brihard

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“Criminal mischief, criminal mischief”

“If you repeat it, if you say it louder, if that’s your talking point, people will totally believe it!”

Even the judge ruling on the honking said the peaceful protests could continue. Protests are meant to be inconvenient. The upper crust of downtown Ottawa and the mandarins working there aren’t used to being inconvenienced like that and were likely shocked and highly offended to see the level of support against the mandates etc.
Yes, mischief, S.430 Criminal Code. Quite a lot of people are presently before the courts charged with exactly that offence arising out of the convoy protests. Most of the cases were not held for bail, so they’re still a long way from any meaningful court action, which means those of you playing from home won’t have heard of them yet- but there are quite a number of those files, and crown’s moving forward with prosecution. You could probably benefit from a bit more familiarity with basic criminal offences and the elements thereof.

Your reference to the judicial commentary about lawful protest in the civil injunction merely shows that you’re cherry-picking what you want to hear. You can commit criminal acts in the course of activity that was otherwise lawful before and after the discrete criminal acts. The judge’s comment in no way shape or form means or even suggests that criminal activity was not also taking place.

Criminal matters, of course, tend to take quite some time to move through the courts. At present the only judicial proceedings that have given us meaningful insight on the criminal side have been bail hearings. What we can infer from those is limited, but it’s evident that the courts are taking criminal charges seriously.

I’m not sure whether you’ve ever been to the nation’s capital, but downtown Ottawa is populated by tens of thousands of normal working people just like you or I, or your family or friends. After the first few blocks south from Wellington, it’s largely apartments and houses. A lot of them are paycheck to paycheck- not this “upper crust” that you imagine as some weird political caste dominating downtown housing.

I’ll make sure to let you know in due course as we begin to see files move fully through court to the point of verdicts.
 

Good2Golf

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Even the judge ruling on the honking said the peaceful protests could continue. Protests are meant to be inconvenient. The upper crust of downtown Ottawa and the mandarins working there aren’t used to being inconvenienced like that and were likely shocked and highly offended to see the level of support against the mandates etc.
Nice try.

Peaceful doesn’t mean restricting the rights of other. Peaceful means holding signs on Parliament Hill and perhaps using a reasonable volume loudspeaker during the day, and not bullying any people who also want to access Parliament Hill’s grounds, or blocking travel on Wellington or other streets.

If a group of protestors chose to Kumbaya and sit themselves across the 401 somewhere in the GTA, quiet or not, that would restrict rights of others and would not be lawful, nor would it likely be considered peaceful as it would be intended to incite. One would think TPS (and the OPP) would clear it out pretty quickly.
 

dimsum

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The upper crust of downtown Ottawa and the mandarins working there aren’t used to being inconvenienced like that and were likely shocked and highly offended to see the level of support against the mandates etc.
I live in downtown Ottawa. I'm a junior officer. There is a halfway house a block from me, and a bunch of low-income housing a few blocks away. Downtown Bank street (not far from me) is not full of "upper crust" folks.

The rich folks in Ottawa do not live downtown - they live in the Glebe or areas where there are actual detached houses with decent sized lots.

What shocked and offended us was the occupiers (and yes, after the first weekend, when it become a block party with horns and a god damned pig roast a block away from my unit) harassing the retail workers and the low/middle-class folks trying to go about their business.

What shocked and offended us were the folks on the War Memorial.

What shocked and offended us were folks bringing their babies and pets to a place that was a sustained 110db (someone checked) for weeks at a time. Those kids and pets will have lasting hearing damage.

There were a core group of people actually about the mandates, although that fractured into "I hate Trudeau for whatever reason", and a much larger "weekend party" crowd that came to drink on the street and piss everywhere. How do I know this? I lived a block away from two of those "support camps" and literally saw that happening for a month.

But I guess I'm upper crust now.
 

Remius

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I explained this when it this was happening when people thought it was the “upper crust” and mandarins being inconvenienced by this. It wasn’t. It was people in many cases already struggling.

Center Town (especially the west part) is a poor neighbourhood.

The upper crust mostly don’t live there and the mandarins have been largely working from home. And even then most don’t have offices in that area.

The frustrating part is the city officials did little to nothing to help these people. They utterly failed them. I care a bit less about the criminal charges pending (although I hope Justice is done) and care more about the civil case. I hope the class action suit gives everyone everything they deserve.
 

Jarnhamar

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I hope the class action suit gives everyone everything they deserve.
Like new city officials and police?

Probably a bigger chance of those 20 defendants handing over $306M plus interest plus legal costs.
 

Remius

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Like new city officials and police?

Probably a bigger chance of those 20 defendants handing over $306M plus interest plus legal costs.
We already have a new chief and by all accounts he’s much better than the last one.

We have an election coming this fall so hopefully that takes care of the city council issue.

Assets and funds have been seized pending litigation. It won’t be 306 million by any means but I hope they squeeze as much as they can out of them.
 
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