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Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

Remius

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Believe whatever you want. I am in Ottawa and this is how it is. It's a small minority that are just loud. Most blockades at the border in Ontario were under 100 vehicles. Look at the pictures of parliament hill filled with people on Canada Day and then compare to now, they can't even get enough to fill the field in front of parliament. People are just bad at doing subjective analysis. Even on weekends, there just about 1000 vehicles, even if it seems like a lot, it's not compared to the population of Ottawa or Canada. This is pretty much the amount of people that voted for the PPC all in one place.
Trucks are definitely force multipliers.
 

dapaterson

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This all reads like an initial misjudgement on the part of OPS, assuming "business as usual: they'll drive in, blow their horns, then leave". (In good military terms, most likely COA.) So let them tool around Parliament Hill for the day; by Sunday morning... Monday January 31st at the absolute latest they'll clear out and be gone.

Setting up to stay, with a small number of bad faith actors embedded within, was either the most dangerous COA or possibly a throwaway, and thus not considered in plans. (That certain groups had announced such plans in the past is easy to point to in hindsight; but such claims have been made often enough that they tend to get lost in the noise.)

And bouncy castles, hot tubs, stages and pancake breakfasts? Most ludicrous COA.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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meni0n

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No need to look here, completely normal for an Assistant Deputy Minister in the intelligence community to condemn the Ottawa Police.

He's got a point as a citizen of Ottawa. This is how most of the city feels like right now. The police completely abandoned the people that are paying their salaries. Just today some examples, people putting handcuffs on doors of a building and testing how it holds the door from the inside, police response is.... not our problem. Unmasked people overrunning a store and threatening staff, police response is... you should close but we're not coming to help. And this is after Sloly said they're going to focus the full force of the police on making sure neighborhoods around the protest are safe.
 

Brad Sallows

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Setting up to stay, with a small number of bad faith actors embedded within, was either the most dangerous COA or possibly a throwaway, and thus not considered in plans.

Hard to miss after all the protests over the past couple of years ("mostly peaceful", mostly "very fine people") in which small cadres of perennial sh!t-disturbers showed up to break things and set fires.

"It can't happen here."
 

Furniture

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He's got a point as a citizen of Ottawa. This is how most of the city feels like right now. The police completely abandoned the people that are paying their salaries. Just today some examples, people putting handcuffs on doors of a building and testing how it holds the door from the inside, police response is.... not our problem. Unmasked people overrunning a store and threatening staff, police response is... you should close but we're not coming to help. And this is after Sloly said they're going to focus the full force of the police on making sure neighborhoods around the protest are safe.
As a citizen of Ottawa I disagree, the OPS made a mistake in assuming the protesters would fizzle out after a weekend, since then they have done what they can based on their numbers, and the need for resources to be sent elsewhere.

The Chief made it clear early on that the OPS didn't have the staff to deal with this problem. Getting upset at the OPS now, after years of cuts, and mismanagement is like complaining that your $10 fire extinguisher wasn't up to the task of putting out a 3 alarm fire.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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As a citizen of Ottawa I disagree, the OPS made a mistake in assuming the protesters would fizzle out after a weekend, since then they have done what they can based on their numbers, and the need for resources to be sent elsewhere.

The Chief made it clear early on that the OPS didn't have the staff to deal with this problem. Getting upset at the OPS now, after years of cuts, and mismanagement is like complaining that your $10 fire extinguisher wasn't up to the task of putting out a 3 alarm fire.
Bingo!

This is the ADM of CSE and he is having a meltdown on Twitter. Doesn't seem like someone I want in charge of my National Security when SHTF.
 

meni0n

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sAs a citizen of Ottawa I disagree, the OPS made a mistake in assuming the protesters would fizzle out after a weekend, since then they have done what they can based on their numbers, and the need for resources to be sent elsewhere.

The Chief made it clear early on that the OPS didn't have the staff to deal with this problem. Getting upset at the OPS now, after years of cuts, and mismanagement is like complaining that your $10 fire extinguisher wasn't up to the task of putting out a 3 alarm fire.
Now I have to disagree. OPS were warned that these protesters will not leave. They claimed they spoke with the organizers and they assured by them that they were going to leave after a few days, which didn't happen. OPS has 1387 sworn members, which Sloly claims are all on duty, with no one taking any time off. There are no being augmented by at least 200 officers. Taking into account some operational staff, let's say 60% are out on the street. So in theory there should be about what 800 officers deployed on the street. Take half of those and they should have about 400 officers available for downtown. During the week, there are less than 400 vehicles and hardcore protesters left downtown. Are you telling me that somehow 400 officers are not enough to properly subdue a 400-500 spread out protest? A coordinated force would have no issue controlling and arresting such as crowd using whatever tools they have in their arsenal, ie CS gas, forming a line and arresting people as they go along the street etc,

Also, what budget cuts are you talking about? OPS budget has been increased every year at least for the past few years.
 
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Humphrey Bogart

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Now I have to disagree. OPS were warned that these protesters will not leave. They claimed they spoke with the organizers and they assured by them that they were going to leave after a few days, which didn't happen. OPS has 1387 sworn members, which Sloly claims are all on duty, with no one taking any time off. There are no being augmented by at least 200 officers. Taking into account some operational staff, let's say 60% are out on the street. So in theory there should be about what 800 officers deployed on the street. Take half of those and they should have about 400 officers available for downtown. During the week, there are less than 400 vehicles and hardcore protesters left downtown. Are you telling me that somehow 400 officers are not enough to properly subdue a 400-500 spread out protest? A coordinated force would have no issue controlling and arresting such as crowd using whatever tools they have in their aresnal, ie CS gas, forming a line and arresting people as they go along the street etc,

Also, what budget cuts are you talking about? OPS budget has been increased every year at least for the past few years.
My heavens, I didn't know the Signal Corps produced so many tactical geniuses. 🤣
 

daftandbarmy

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Now I have to disagree. OPS were warned that these protesters will not leave. They claimed they spoke with the organizers and they assured by them that they were going to leave after a few days, which didn't happen. OPS has 1387 sworn members, which Sloly claims are all on duty, with no one taking any time off. There are no being augmented by at least 200 officers. Taking into account some operational staff, let's say 60% are out on the street. So in theory there should be about what 800 officers deployed on the street. Take half of those and they should have about 400 officers available for downtown. During the week, there are less than 400 vehicles and hardcore protesters left downtown. Are you telling me that somehow 400 officers are not enough to properly subdue a 400-500 spread out protest? A coordinated force would have no issue controlling and arresting such as crowd using whatever tools they have in their aresnal, ie CS gas, forming a line and arresting people as they go along the street etc,

Also, what budget cuts are you talking about? OPS budget has been increased every year at least for the past few years.

The best time to move in on protesters/rioters/occupiers is around 0300hrs when most people are away or sleeping, especially reporters ;)

Just Saying Amanda Seales GIF by NBC
 

meni0n

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Bingo!

This is the ADM of CSE and he is having a meltdown on Twitter. Doesn't seem like someone I want in charge of my National Security when SHTF.
You should head down there and protest in front of the building to let them know. Maybe try to get inside and talk to the CSE commissioner about this. I'm sure they'll be extremely glad to get your professional opinion on this and act on it without delay.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Hey, let's ignore facts and try to delegitimize my opinion based on what branch I used to serve with. Taking a page out of the freedumb convoy nazis and racists right?
Lets look at your facts then shall we:

Ottawa Police are a Municipal Police Force, on top of this Freedom Convoy, they are still required to maintain service elsewhere. So there are competing demands for their service, many competing demands.

Your numbers assume that every Police Officer is working at all times. We know that this is impossible, well at least I hope you would know seeing as how your Military and you should realize that isn't sustainable.

Then you've also got the fact that if you paid attention to sources other than the cameras pointing at the very high profile spectacle happening on Parliament Hill, you would know that the protesters are actually dispersed and there are multiple camps all around the city.

You've also vastly overstated the capabilities of the Police Forces to deal with these protests as there are so many happening right now and there are only so many public order units aka (the professionals) to deal with these incidents.

While every single public order unit in Ontario was busy trying to deal with the Ambassador Bridge Blockade, copy cat protests were springing up elswhere, like Cornwall for instance. Cornwall and Ottawa are both around 8 hours from Windsor so once the Cops are finished there they will need to be moved, this requires planning and resources.

You can already see that the protests have stretched resources thin and I'm sorry but the cupboards are bare.

If you think there is an easy solution to this, keep thinking that but it's just not true.

The Oka Crisis lasted for 3 months and that was after the Army Mobilized. The size of that event pales in comparison to what we are seeing here.
 

meni0n

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Lets look at your facts then shall we:

Ottawa Police are a Municipal Police Force, on top of this Freedom Convoy, they are still required to maintain service elsewhere. So there are competing demands for their service, many competing demands.

Your numbers assume that every Police Officer is working at all times. We know that this is impossible, well at least I hope you would know seeing as how your Military and you should realize that isn't sustainable.

Then you've also got the fact that if you paid attention to sources other than the cameras pointing at the very high profile spectacle happening on Parliament Hill, you would know that the protesters are actually dispersed and there are multiple camps all around the city.

You've also vastly overstated the capabilities of the Police Forces to deal with these protests as there are so many happening right now and there are only so many public order units aka (the professionals) to deal with these incidents.

While every single public order unit in Ontario was busy trying to deal with the Ambassador Bridge Blockade, copy cat protests were springing up elswhere, like Cornwall for instance. Cornwall and Ottawa are both around 8 hours from Windsor so once the Cops are finished there they will need to be moved, this requires planning and resources.

You can already see that the protests have stretched resources thin and I'm sorry but the cupboards are bare.

If you think there is an easy solution to this, keep thinking that but it's just not true.

The Oka Crisis lasted for 3 months and that was after the Army Mobilized. The size of that event pales in comparison to what we are seeing here.
My numbers are totally fine since Sloly said all officers are working full time with no time off, so doing 12 hour shifts. My numbers also take into account half of the officers on duty and half officers away elsewhere on calls in town and also including all the extra OPP and RCMP officers that were sent.

Do the math, there are a minimum of 300 officers available to take care of the protest downtown. Crime did not magically go up in Ottawa that they somehow need hundreds of extra officers patrolling the city. The OPS have been virtually invisible downtown and in surrounding neighborhoods.

For Ottawa, there is only one major protest and it is happening on Rideau street in front of Parliament. The other staging areas are way too far away from anything, especially Coventry. Like I previously said, during the week, it's mostly the hardcore protesters that are left downtown, at most 300-400. Even if they start going block by block in force, arresting protesters and putting them on buses, this will not take too long to resolve. A coordinated force will have no issues dispersing this crowd at night.

What is moving police resources around the province have anything to do with anything? RCMP just flew hundreds of officers to BC to enforce an injunctions against indigenous protesters with no issues, so I don't see what the problem is here? There are already hundreds of extra officers that were sent to augment the OPS. This can be dealt with in one night. Once you show that there are real consequences to actions and that force would be used against illegally occupying streets in Ottawa, most protesters will not come back. It is an easy solution, there needs to be a show of force and let the protesters know that there are consequences with disregarding the law. Right now, they are emboldened because there have been no repercussions to their actions so they just keep pushing the envelope to see how far they can go.
 
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