Found out someone defrauding the ir system

[Markopolo]

Hello,

So I just found out that my husband's captain has been separated from his wife for about eleven months.  This came out while my husband and I were out for drinks with the captain and he had a bit too much and let it slip.  He has been getting the ir/se benefit this whole time, even though he would not qualify for it due to the impending divorce.

My question is what to do?  How in good conscience do I just leave it?  He's getting a benefit that he does not deserve.  The worst part is people like him who abuse the system could potentially ruin it for everyone else.  However at the same time, why should we get involved?  Why are there not more checks and balances in the program which requires both the member and the spouse to sign off on the ir every year so that people can scam thousands from the caf?

What would you do in my position?

 

[RedcapCrusader]

Eventually he will get audited, but, ethically your husband has a duty to report.

 

[Infanteer]

Would one still be entitled to an SE in the middle of proceedings?  Not knowing the policy and the law, I would assume that eligibility would cease once the divorce is signed and the member removes the ex-spouse as a dependent from their MPRR.  Just a guess.

 

[ballz]

Would one still be entitled to an SE in the middle of proceedings?  Not knowing the policy and the law, I would assume that eligibility would cease once the divorce is signed and the member removes the ex-spouse as a dependent from their MPRR.  Just a guess.

I don't think so. Divorces can take years. There is an actual marital status of "separated" which means you are legally separated but the divorce is not finalized so you are therefore still legally married.

CBI 208 on separation expense...

Spouse in relation to a member, does not include a spouse who is living separate and apart, within the meaning of the Divorce Act, from the member.

From the Divorce Act...
"(a) spouses shall be deemed to have lived separate and apart for any period during which they lived apart and either of them had the intention to live separate and apart from the other"

dependant
means:

a member's spouse or common-law partner;
a member's, their spouse's, or their common-law partner's child – including a stepchild, legal ward, adopted child or child adopted under a Canadian aboriginal custom adoption practice – who is dependent on the member because the child is:
under 18 years of age;
mentally or physically disabled; or
under 25 years of age and in fulltime attendance at a school or other education institution that provides training or instruction of an educational, professional, vocational or technical nature; or
a member's, their spouse's, or their common-law partner's relative – a parent, grandparent, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, niece, nephew or grandchild – who is dependent on the member because the relative is mentally or physically disabled.

Snipped from eligibility...

the member does not move their (D)HG&E to the new place of duty;
the member occupies an accommodation at a new place of duty; and
a dependant occupies the principal residence on a full-time basis.

In order to be eligible, you must have a dependent who lives in your principal residence on a full-time basis (by principal residence they mean the one you were just posted away from). Since his spouse no longer meets the definition of a spouse, they are not a dependent.

So the remaining question is... does the Captain have a child (or, other dependent I guess) living at that primary residence (like their ex-partner and their child live there full-time or something) and would that child (or other person) count as a dependent? A lawyer could convince me otherwise, but drawing on my knowledge of the income tax act (certainly not a perfect parallel), they would not be.

 

[ballz]

Eventually he will get audited, but, ethically your husband has a duty to report.

I would suggest he goes out for another beer and has a face-to-face talk with him about it, and gives the guy the opportunity to sort himself out. It's a pretty ugly situation, especially since her husband appears to be the Captain's subordinate. But, if they are good enough friends to go out for dinner and drink beers together, they can be good enough friends to have the hard talks, too.

There easily could be a lot more to it and there is nothing underhanded going on, and sometimes people in rough spots are just having a momentary lapse in judgement. Jumping right to reporting him without this opportunity is probably going to make the situation worse for all involved.

As for eventually getting caught on an audit... I have my doubts to be honest.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

Even if you're not officially/legally separated/divorced, if you're not living in the same house when you otherwise would be, youre not eligible for Separation Benefits.

 

[Ostrozac]

A lot of it would hinge on the occupancy of the principal residence (the family home). If it's vacant, that's pretty clear. But if the spouse is still living in the principal residence, even if the messaging is "don't bother coming back, I'm divorcing you" -- that probably isn't legally separated (separate and apart implies different primary residences), and the member may still have a dependant spouse until the divorce and the splitting of assets.

And as noted, children can also be dependants, regardless of the status of the parents.

So yeah, without more details, I wouldn't necessarily be immediately dropping a dime to the NIS and claiming fraud. The member may still be entitled to iR.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Hello,

So I just found out that my husband's captain has been separated from his wife for about eleven months.  This came out while my husband and I were out for drinks with the captain and he had a bit too much and let it slip.  He has been getting the ir/se benefit this whole time, even though he would not qualify for it due to the impending divorce.

First off, I'm assuming your husband is in the CAF and you are a civilian spouse.  I've based my reply on that...the way you wrote this doesn't strike me that you're a MSC.

Do you, definitively, what the policy is on this?  If they haven't signed a formal agreement to separate, etc yet what is their actual status as far as the CAF is concerned?  Do you know he hasn't already let his CofC/immediate superior officer know what the 'status' is?

My question is what to do?  How in good conscience do I just leave it?  He's getting a benefit that he does not deserve.  The worst part is people like him who abuse the system could potentially ruin it for everyone else.  However at the same time, why should we get involved?  Why are there not more checks and balances in the program which requires both the member and the spouse to sign off on the ir every year so that people can scam thousands from the caf?

You're making a lot of assumptions here.  Notice I highlighted the word "we"...

How in good conscience do I just leave it?  Easy - this is a CAF issue and unless you're in the CAF and know more facts, etc it isn't your responsibility, is it?

What would you do in my position?

I hope you're ready for an honest answer to that...

If I were you, I'd mind your own business.  It seems to me you're making assumptions and treating them as facts.  If the worst part of the system is people who abuse the system, then the second worst part are the people who are holding a Scarlett Letter and looking for someone to hang it on before knowing facts, which they probably aren't entitled to/in the position to know in the first place because it's really none of their business.

 

[Gunner98]

I would certainly need more facts before reporting anything:
- where does the Capt's spouse live - is the distance significant enough that he is able to claim a reunion visit
- does he go home for visits - where does he stay when he goes home
- are there children that live in his house
- has separation documents actually been legally filed or is the IR sufficient for now
- has he declared the home his wife lives in as his IPR - intended place of residence
- how long has he been on IR and when will it end

I spent 4 years living in a hotel in Ottawa while my family remained in Petawawa, in many ways it felt like we were 'separated'.  In fact when I was finally reunited with my family separate master bedrooms in our family home was the result.
I would not want other IR residents of the hotel to report things that I (or they) said and did during those 4 years without all of the facts.
I would not report things that I heard while drinking with someone as fact, alcohol affects your clarity of thinking and remembering.

I know many people who stayed the same amount of time on IR and in many cases there marriages were affected.  The decision to go on IR often results from some instability in the marriage and it is not always about the spouse's employment or children's schooling which was the reason stated to the chain of command.  This sort of trial separation can be brought on by someone being quickly posted out to accommodate a service couple being posted in and the IR family as a whole does not sufficient time to react.  Since the member has no choice, off they go and they, the non-service couple, are left to decide if this is the life for them.

 

[Journeyman]

How in good conscience do I just leave it?  Easy - this is a CAF issue and unless you're in the CAF and know more facts, etc it isn't your responsibility, is it?

If I were you, I'd mind your own business. 

Wow.  Someone asks a question based on what they believe to be an ethical dilemma, and gets bitch-slapped for it. 

Sure, the details provided may not be up to Sherlock Holmes' standard.... and maybe  some of the issues facing the CAF today are because too many people think Pontius Pilate is a role model, or doing the right thing is just too darn tough.

"Leadership" indeed.    :not-again:

 

[Markopolo]

So a bit more info from the conversation...

She broke up with him almost a year ago when she found out about his girlfriend at his current posting.  He attempted to go back once but she would not let him in.  She apparently packed all his things and sent them to him.  He's still with the girlfriend and the wife just served him with the divorce papers because the year separated is almost here.

It pissed me off that he still isn't planning on changing his ir situation and was almost boastful about getting the benefit while not having to contribute to another house.

While it might not be my place to say anything my husband may have a duty to report.  I'm just trying to gather info to help him with a decision.

 

[Infanteer]

If I were you, I'd mind your own business.  It seems to me you're making assumptions and treating them as facts.  If the worst part of the system is people who abuse the system, then the second worst part are the people who are holding a Scarlett Letter and looking for someone to hang it on before knowing facts, which they probably aren't entitled to/in the position to know in the first place because it's really none of their business.

This is the kind of thinking that got us to Op HONOUR....

 

[McG]

How in good conscience do I just leave it?  Easy - this is a CAF issue and unless you're in the CAF and know more facts, etc it isn't your responsibility, is it?

I hope you're ready for an honest answer to that...

If I were you, I'd mind your own business.  ...

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, eh? This is not an internal CAF matter when it is fraud with tax payer money. “What if-ing” from your position of ignorance and playing barracks room lawyer does not does not change things. A member in receipt of separation expense looses that entitlement when they arrive at the conclusion that they will never move back into the share residence with their spouse. It does not matter that the children are there - it is the spouse’s residence now.

 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Wow.  Someone asks a question based on what they believe to be an ethical dilemma, and gets bitch-slapped for it. 

Sure, the details provided may not be up to Sherlock Holmes' standard.... and maybe  some of the issues facing the CAF today are because too many people think Pontius Pilate is a role model, or doing the right thing is just too darn tough.

"Leadership" indeed.    :not-again:

Based on what the poster said in the first post...really?  What is your blessed, perfect DS Solution then?  Is it an 'issue' when a civilian spouse gets involved without knowing policy and facts?  :

Because in this case, the 'ethical dilemma' isn't for the poster, it may be for her husband.  Should he be discussing personal information about superior officers over drinks with his wife?  No ethical dilemma there?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So a bit more info from the conversation...

She broke up with him almost a year ago when she found out about his girlfriend at his current posting.  He attempted to go back once but she would not let him in.  She apparently packed all his things and sent them to him.  He's still with the girlfriend and the wife just served him with the divorce papers because the year separated is almost here.

It pissed me off that he still isn't planning on changing his ir situation and was almost boastful about getting the benefit while not having to contribute to another house.

While it might not be my place to say anything my husband may have a duty to report.  I'm just trying to gather info to help him with a decision.

That would have been helpful in the first post, but thanks for posting the extra info.  IAW the QR & O, regardless if your husband is another Officer or a NCM he has a duty to report.  He likely knows that though. 

I've highlighted the important part here - not sure your husband's rank or how much experience he has with this stuff;  there are various people he could go to at his unit to discuss and get advice without mentioning names initially.  If he is 'friends' with the Capt outside of the work relationship, Ballz already mentioned the 'you really should do the right thing here, Bob' conversation over a beer.  I've had relationships with Jnr Officers who I could have done that with, and others that I couldn't have.

I was in a situation once as a Snr NCO where my direct superior, a Capt, had a made a decision to allow something to happen that clearly should not happen IAW a specific policy.  I spoke to the Capt, gave him/her the option to consider the relevant policy (a national one, where there was no black/white).  He/she refused to reverse the decision in spite of clear policy, and told me 'the authority is mine not yours'.  I felt my responsibility was more to my CO and unit than it was to this specific Officer;  I approached the Ajdt and asked him to schedule a meeting with myself and a SME Jnr Officer from our next HHQ and reported what was going on and what steps I'd taken to date.

My working relationship with that Capt never did recover;  but I've never had trouble looking at myself in the mirror shaving.  Your husband has options in his workplace;  there should be a Unit Ethics Coordinator he can go to, his CofC, the unit CWO/CPO or Adjt.  Lots of options on how to go forward if there is no ability to have 'the talk over a beer'.

 

[Gunner98]

So a bit more info from the conversation...

It pissed me off that he still isn't planning on changing his ir situation and was almost boastful about getting the benefit while not having to contribute to another house.

While it might not be my place to say anything my husband may have a duty to report.  I'm just trying to gather info to help him with a decision.

Ethical decision making options:
- When the individual was boastful, did your husband raise the issue of fraud?
- Since the conversation has your husband discussed the issue of fraud with his superior?
- If your husband or you know his wife then it could be a simple as having the wife report the matter to his chain of command or their spouses.
- The fraud is bigger than just the fact that he is receiving the IR benefits, it is the fact that he is lying to his chain of command and the CAF about his marital status. The Military Police have offices and a tip to them could be initiated: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/contact-us/military-police-contact-us.page  Your husband believes a crime of fraud of fraud is in progress, could report it to them rather than the chain of command.

In the end your husband is aware of evidence that indicate fraud and lying is taking place.  He could:
- Confront the individual and encourage them to report the matter. 
- Report the matter to the member's chain of command,
- Encourage the spouse who has filed for divorce to contact the chain of command or the military police, or
- Contact the military police himself. 

Doing nothing does not make him an accessory after the fact, but it may make him feel as such.  Doing the right thing is not always easy, doing the the thing right requires discretion, courage and confidence in purpose.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, eh?

Where did I say that? 

“What if-ing” from your position of ignorance and playing barracks room lawyer does not does not change things[/color].

Likewise  :not-again:

 

[Gunner98]

DND and CAF Code of Ethics:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about/code-of-values-and-ethics.page

6.2 CF Members
6.2.1 CF members are expected to abide by DND and CF Code of Values and Ethics and demonstrate the values of this code in their actions and behaviour.

6.2.2 CF members who are also in a leadership role have a particular responsibility to exemplify the military values of the Canadian Forces and the common values and expected obligations of the DND and CF Code of Values and Ethics.

6.2.3 CF leaders, at all levels, are expected to create a healthy ethical culture that is free from reprisal, ensure that all subordinates are given every opportunity to meet their legal and ethical obligations to act, and to proactively inculcate the values of the DND and CF Code of Values and Ethics.

 

[Markopolo]

Ethical decision making options:
- When the individual was boastful, did your husband raise the issue of fraud?

No as we were both shocked at the conversation.  Hubby didn't know what to do so we just sat there and listened.

- Since the conversation has your husband discussed the issue of fraud with his superior?

No, it just happened last night.


- If your husband or you know his wife then it could be a simple as having the wife report the matter to his chain of command or their spouses.

No one knows his wife.  I had actually mistaken his girlfriend for his wife.  Guess I was wrong there lol.


- The fraud is bigger than just the fact that he is receiving the IR benefits, it is the fact that he is lying to his chain of command and the CAF about his marital status. The Military Police have offices and a tip to them could be initiated: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/contact-us/military-police-contact-us.page  Your husband believes a crime of fraud of fraud is in progress, could report it to them rather than the chain of command.

In the end your husband is aware of evidence that indicate fraud and lying is taking place.  He could:
- Confront the individual and encourage them to report the matter. 
- Report the matter to the member's chain of command,
- Encourage the spouse who has filed for divorce to contact the chain of command or the military police, or
- Contact the military police himself. 

While I'm sure the spouse would love the chance to stick it to a cheating husband, unfortunately I don't know anyone who actually knows who this woman is.  Thanks for the info, I will pass it along to him.

Doing nothing does not make him an accessory after the fact, but it may make him feel as such.  Doing the right thing is not always easy, doing the the thing right requires discretion, courage and confidence in purpose.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

if you want to get into the regs/policy side, let's go right to the core:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-04.page#cha-004-02

4.02 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF OFFICERS

(1) An officer shall:
a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce:i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act,
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the officer's duties;

b.afford to all persons employed in the public service such assistance in the performance of their duties as is practical;
c.promote the welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all subordinates;
d.ensure the proper care and maintenance, and prevent the waste, of all public and non-public property within the officer's control; and
e.report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline when the officer cannot deal adequately with the matter.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-05.page

5.01- GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

A non-commissioned member shall:
a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act, (5 June 2008)
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the member's duties;

(See articles 1.22 – Accessibility of Regulations, Orders and Instructions and 4.26 – Publicity of Regulations, Orders, Instructions, Correspondence and Publications.)

b.afford to all persons employed in the public service such assistance in the performance of their duties as is practical;
c.promote the welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all who are subordinate to the member;
d.ensure the proper care and maintenance and prevent the waste of all public and non-public property within the member's control; and
e.report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline.