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FORCE 2025: Informing the Army’s future structure

KevinB

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And being on land, with surface threats that can hide and crawl up to you undetected form multiple directions at once, unlike at sea where there is no hiding on the surface and approaches are more limited in numbers and watched over by sensors, wouldn't you need a much larger number of "basic" (read infanteer) personnel for force protection?
Depending where you are - surface and subsurface threats can swim up to you.
USS Cole for instance...
 

Halifax Tar

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Thinking more on the naval analogy

One Lt Colonel (Commander)
225 Under Command (Small Battalion or Reinforced Company Combat Team)

Own Base

Responsible for

Base Maintenance
Base Engineering
Hotel (Room and Board)
Continuous Surveillance of Surface (Land), Air, and Subsurface (Underground)
Relocating Base constantly

Conducting constabulary and combat duties

Preparing for peer on peer high intensity warfare

Assets on hand, in addition to the vessel and its boats



I remember reading that the Absalom crew of 100 was divided in roughly 4 equal parts.

One to drive the ship
One to power the ship
One to supply room and board
One to fight the ship.
One to pay, feed and supply the ship.
And there, again, we have that 3:1 ratio of Tail to Tooth.
But the tooth covers a large variety and number of targets in three dimensions over a very large area. And most of its day job is actually spent in surveillance, observation and reconnaissance. Delivering ordnance happens so infrequently as to be risible.


Now why can't a soldier be more like a sailor? Pace Henry Higgins.
You've left out Logistics

How many Lt Cdrs, Lt(N) and POs are there in the Halifax?
1 LCdr
1 CPO
5 to 10 LT(s) HODs and a sundry of positions
5 CPO2 1 per department

And.....

What would it take to organize the army into 15 deployable "Stone Frigate" Combat Teams with exactly the same assets as a CSC but mounted on pallets deployable by truck, helos, planes .... and ships?

It strikes me that they would create great bases for stabilizing the unstabilized and providing sally ports for larger elements, or special and OGD elements.

And, in a peer on peer effort they could be grouped in Task Forces supplying mutual cover and defending a large operational area in which a mech brigade could manoeuvre, light or heavy.

15x 225 = 3,375

Or one small Brigade.


Edit - and the Brigade is getting smaller

Number under command being reduced from 225 to 204 for a Brigade reduction from 3,375 to 3,060 for a saving of 315, or another 1.5 commands.

While the assets under command are increasing

Sensors and
processing systems
  • Command and control
  • Surveillance & weapon sensors
    • Lockheed Martin Canada AN/SPY-7(V)1[3] Solid State 3D AESA radar
    • MDA Solid State AESA Target Illuminator
    • X & S Band navigation radars
    • Electro-optical and infrared systems
  • Underwater warfare systems
    • Hull-mounted sonar: Ultra Electronics Sonar S2150-C[4]
    • Towed sonar: Ultra Electronics TFLAS[5] (variable depth)
Electronic warfare
& decoys
Lockheed Martin Canada RAVEN electronic countermeasures[10] Ultra Electronics SEA SENTOR S21700 towed torpedo countermeasures
Armament
Aircraft carried
Aviation facilities
Notes
  • Flexible Mission Bay
    • Rolls-Royce Mission Bay Handling System
    • Modular mission support capacity for sea containers and vehicles
    • 2 × 9–12 m (30–39 ft) multi-role boats
    • 1 × 9 m rescue boat

and we haven't talked about the 390 sailors in their 6 Arctic Patrol Bases (65 each), the 212 in their 4 Subsurface Patrol Bases (53 each) and the 402 reservists manning their Patrol Bases (37 each).

If you add the whole bunch together (3060 + 390 + 212 + 402) you get a total strength of 4064. Or one Brigade Gp of rations (including 10% part-timers).

What does the Army deliver for a comparable investment in manpower?
Again, Logistics.

I see what you are driving at, Kirkhill, but it is unfair to compare manpower of the Navy vs what it delivers by looking only at the crewing of the ships. The very large and manpower intensive industrial bases that support those ships, particularly on the naval architecture/engineering/maintenance Logistics side of things must be included, and that just doubled your manpower requirement, without providing for training and staffing ashore. The Navy produces its effect with the totality of its manpower, not just the sea going personnel.

Moreover, at action station, everyone has a duty/secondary duty to perform and everybody is up for the duration, duties which no one performs "full time". In an Army/land situation, wouldn't all of the above things have to be manned at all times? That requires more personnel.

And being on land, with surface threats that can hide and crawl up to you undetected form multiple directions at once, unlike at sea where there is no hiding on the surface and approaches are more limited in numbers and watched over by sensors, wouldn't you need a much larger number of "basic" (read infanteer) personnel for force protection?
Lastly, Logistics.

I know what we do is seldom seen or appreciated so I will take every opportunity to make sure it is recognized. And taken to account.
 

KevinB

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The exception that proves the rule ;)
Lastly, Logistics.

I know what we do is seldom seen or appreciated so I will take every opportunity to make sure it is recognized. And taken to account.
The adage that Amateurs talk tactics - Professionals talk Logistics...

I think a 1:6 tooth to tail relationship is fairly reasonable in this day and age - based on what you and OldBoat posted about the Navy - seeing US Rotary Wing aspects that seems to bear out as well -- I'm unsure of the Fixed Wing side but I suspect it is close.
The US Army works with about the same when you factor contracted support positions.

As long as that tail covers all aspects of the Combat Service Support, Sustainment (inc recruiting and training) and Support requirements (and I am lumping non Deployable HQ there too).


How Big is Canada's Regular Force Army again?
 

Kirkhill

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One to pay, feed and supply the ship.


You've left out Logistics


1 LCdr
1 CPO
5 to 10 LT(s) HODs and a sundry of positions
5 CPO2 1 per department


Again, Logistics.


Lastly, Logistics.

I know what we do is seldom seen or appreciated so I will take every opportunity to make sure it is recognized. And taken to account.

I stand firmly corrected. And I fully appreciate the value of the logistics trade.

But that comes out of the 204 to 225 people placed under the command of the "Base Commander"

Which just makes the Army situation appear less defensible in my eyes.
 

Kirkhill

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I see what you are driving at, Kirkhill, but it is unfair to compare manpower of the Navy vs what it delivers by looking only at the crewing of the ships. The very large and manpower intensive industrial bases that support those ships, particularly on the naval architecture/engineering/maintenance side of things must be included, and that just doubled your manpower requirement, without providing for training and staffing ashore. The Navy produces its effect with the totality of its manpower, not just the sea going personnel.

Moreover, at action station, everyone has a duty/secondary duty to perform and everybody is up for the duration, duties which no one performs "full time". In an Army/land situation, wouldn't all of the above things have to be manned at all times? That requires more personnel.

And being on land, with surface threats that can hide and crawl up to you undetected form multiple directions at once, unlike at sea where there is no hiding on the surface and approaches are more limited in numbers and watched over by sensors, wouldn't you need a much larger number of "basic" (read infanteer) personnel for force protection?

I am not persuaded it is unfair.

1631651680231.png

1631651708588.png

Looking at the Skyshield crew (top) with two Gunners manning a control station that receives Radar and EO/IR inputs and can respond with 2x 35mm cannons and an array of missiles, or the NASAMs crew of 11 and their sensors, missiles and controls I am not convinced that the army can't do a lot more with the PYs it has. Particularly if they were arty PYs.

In the 204 PY ship lets suppose that we are actually looking at 50 EME types to man the generators, the ROWPUs, maintain the weapons and sensors. There are another 50 Service Bn types supplying hotel and logistics support. And yet another 50 Gunners manning the CIC. The last 50 responsible for sailing the ship - lets put them into Command, Sigs and Defence and Duties.

Mount the gear on pallets, as shown in the SkyGuard and NASAMS pictures. Add as many palletized and containerized modules as you like. Add fixed and roving Remote Weapons Systems

1631652406747.png1631652451378.png

Now how much work can be effectively done within arms reach of the coffee pot? By how few gunners? And how big a D&D platoon do you need before you have to call on the infantry?

Or can the infantry be kept in reserve for more offensive duties such as counter-attacks, offensive patrols or battalion assaults?

The navy demonstrates daily that it is possible to replace muscles with motors. The army, I think, could take a few lessons from them.

It wouldn't be the first time.

1631653045140.png
 

KevinB

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I am not persuaded it is unfair.





Mount the gear on pallets, as shown in the SkyGuard and NASAMS pictures. Add as many palletized and containerized modules as you like. Add fixed and roving Remote Weapons Systems

Now how much work can be effectively done within arms reach of the coffee pot? By how few gunners? And how big a D&D platoon do you need before you have to call on the infantry?

Or can the infantry be kept in reserve for more offensive duties such as counter-attacks, offensive patrols or battalion assaults?

The navy demonstrates daily that it is possible to replace muscles with motors. The army, I think, could take a few lessons from them.
Local Defense needs to be viewed as an Internal Responsibility. If we learned nothing from the last 20 years it needs to be that security in an Asymetrical battlefield - and lets face it, regardless if it is Peer/Near Peer, or Low Level Conflict/Peace Support missions - any enemy is going to make it as Asymetrical as possible.

Much like (as I understand) the Navy views damage control etc as secondary duties, all the CSS, HQ etc personnel need to view local defense as their own secondary duty - and in some cases it will involve continuous manning of some personnel.

When you attach a Coy or PL from an Inf Bn as D&S it just further weakens the Tooth side of the equation -- it is FAR better to plan for that in your manning already, now obviously no one will expect a Maintenance Platoon to be able to hold off a Mechanized Coy - but there must be training and equipment for those personnel to be able to cover their own 6...
 

Kirkhill

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I agree with you Kevin. And I don't think it would be news to the Navy who is used to damage control parties, launching recce parties and even, repelling boarders.

But what I am suggesting is that a Naval Stone Frigate, supplying a 25 to 50 km air defence bubble, a 100 km to 200 km fire support bubble (5" guns and NSMs plus whatever is in the Mk41 silos other than SAMs) plus its close defence 35s and HMGs etc, provides, for a very low investment in PYs a firm base from which to launch a Battle Group. With Aviation support.
 

Halifax Tar

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The exception that proves the rule ;)

The adage that Amateurs talk tactics - Professionals talk Logistics...

I think a 1:6 tooth to tail relationship is fairly reasonable in this day and age - based on what you and OldBoat posted about the Navy - seeing US Rotary Wing aspects that seems to bear out as well -- I'm unsure of the Fixed Wing side but I suspect it is close.
The US Army works with about the same when you factor contracted support positions.

As long as that tail covers all aspects of the Combat Service Support, Sustainment (inc recruiting and training) and Support requirements (and I am lumping non Deployable HQ there too).


How Big is Canada's Regular Force Army again?

Just FYI a frigate has bunks for around 254 peeps. Of that about 30 pers are in the Log Dept.

Also when a ship deploys the crew is cut to bring on the com research, int, PAO, padre and NTOG. And that's not including staff if you're unlucky enough to be the command platform.

For interests sake; in FRE in 2020 we left with all 254 bunks full. We sailed back into Halifax last July at just under 200.
 

McG

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Pardon me while I stray out of lanes...

Why do you think the CBT Arms folks couldn't deal with the geographical instability ?

Most other branches don't have that stability. Or perhaps they should ?
It is not that Cbt Arms can’t deal with some geographic instability and the need for occasional moves. Every occupation has some requirement to move, but the vast majority of occupations can move people between between different units & sub-units inside of a single geographic location. This improves stability & quality of life. I believe even the Navy assigns a home port and does most movements within the home port instead of moving people between Halifax & Victoria simply to serve on a different ship.

The proposal of building three Army brigades that each had equal representation of each regiment would be the same as imposing the opposite of home ports. Instead of being able to move personnel of a common occupation between neighbouring units (or neighbouring sub-units as the proposal implies for armour), you would have to needlessly move them & families to another city in another province. Doesn’t mater if it is frigates or tank squadrons, such a system would be wasteful & an unneeded imposition on members & families.
 

CBH99

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Just FYI a frigate has bunks for around 254 peeps. Of that about 30 pers are in the Log Dept.

Also when a ship deploys the crew is cut to bring on the com research, int, PAO, padre and NTOG. And that's not including staff if you're unlucky enough to be the command platform.

For interests sake; in FRE in 2020 we left with all 254 bunks full. We sailed back into Halifax last July at just under 200.
Seriously… nobody has asked what the hell happened to the 54-odd souls that weren’t on the ship when it got back? 😐
 

Kirkhill

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More on the subject of Army vs Navy organization

INTERNAL ORGANISATION
HDMS Absalon internal organisation is constructed in order to be able to support any contingent that is
carried onboard in any of the above mentioned roles. The organisation is divided in 4 divisions
- Operations division:
6 officers, 4 PO, 21 ratings
- Logistics division:
2 officers, 4 PO, 24 ratings
- Weapons- and Electronics
division:
2 officers, 3 PO, 12 ratings
- Technical Division:
4 officers, 1 PO, 13 ratings

On overseas operations she will plus up the crew

Crew
The crew size during deployment to Operation OCEAN SHIELD will be around 155. The
permanent crew will be supplemented by a number of specialists from the Royal Danish
Army, the Royal Danish Air Force, the Navy’s corps of Frogmen, and the naval Military
Police.

HDMS Absalon is equipped with 2 RHIBs which are used for normal personnel transfer and during Man
Over Board (MOB) operations. Furthermore HDMS Absalon can carry and handle up to two medium size
helicopters (Merlin-size)

SENSORS:
SMART-S Air surveillance radar
TERMA Surface surveillance radar
FURUNO Navigation radars
FLIR Infrared camera
4 x CEROS Fire control radars with TV, laser and electro optics
EDO Electronic Support Measure
ATLAS Medium Range sonar with Mine Avoidance
For Command, Control and Communication purposes Absalon uses UHF- VHF- HF and SATCOM
supporting; TV, phone, fax, WWW, LAN and classified networks.

WEAPONS:
1 x 127mm gun Anti air/surface gun including naval fire support.
2 x 35mm gun Close in weapon system (CIWS)
8 x 12,7mm Heavy machine gun
HARPOON Surface-surface missile
SEASPARROW Surface-air missile
STINGER Anti air
MU-90 torpedoes Subsurface warfare
CHAFF Anti ship missile defence

FLEX-deck
Absalon has a feature that makes it unique compared to other navy vessels. Besides being able to fight as a
standard frigate it has the capability to carry a wide variety of material and personnel due to the FLEX-deck
layout. The FLEX-deck can be compared to a “ferry-deck”
and the size of the deck makes it possible for Absalon to
support many different kinds of capacities.
Via the aft hatch HDMS Absalon can load items with a size
and weight equivalent to the weight of a tank (62 t) from the
Danish Army. Adjacent compartments and holds are also an
integrated part of the FLEX-deck.
 

Attachments

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Halifax Tar

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It is not that Cbt Arms can’t deal with some geographic instability and the need for occasional moves. Every occupation has some requirement to move, but the vast majority of occupations can move people between between different units & sub-units inside of a single geographic location. This improves stability & quality of life. I believe even the Navy assigns a home port and does most movements within the home port instead of moving people between Halifax & Victoria simply to serve on a different ship.

The proposal of building three Army brigades that each had equal representation of each regiment would be the same as imposing the opposite of home ports. Instead of being able to move personnel of a common occupation between neighbouring units (or neighbouring sub-units as the proposal implies for armour), you would have to needlessly move them & families to another city in another province. Doesn’t mater if it is frigates or tank squadrons, such a system would be wasteful & an unneeded imposition on members & families.

So not what Log, RCEME, Med, SIGs, ect do because reasons ?

The RCN is a bad example for your point. For RCN trades there are only two operational bases. And HPDs do not get assigned unless the person is part of the RCN. Those not wearing that cap badge do not get that protective blanket.

I'm not trying to to be flippant but what's the difference between and an RCR infanteer and a R22R infanteer ? Other than a cap badge and adolescent chest ponding of course.
 

Halifax Tar

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Seriously… nobody has asked what the hell happened to the 54-odd souls that weren’t on the ship when it got back? 😐
Well we sadly lost 6 when Stalker went down.

Then the Air Dept left as we had no helo. And we continued to repat pers for various reasons.
 

CBH99

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Well we sadly lost 6 when Stalker went down.

Then the Air Dept left as we had no helo. And we continued to repat pers for various reasons.
Well that attempt at dark sarcasm backfired big time. My apologies, sincerely.


(When first glancing at the post, leaving with 254 and coming back with roughly 200 had me scratching my head. I had taken Stalker into account, but hadn’t realized the air det had come back early (which makes total sense.))
 

Halifax Tar

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More on the subject of Army vs Navy organization

INTERNAL ORGANISATION
HDMS Absalon internal organisation is constructed in order to be able to support any contingent that is
carried onboard in any of the above mentioned roles. The organisation is divided in 4 divisions
- Operations division:
6 officers, 4 PO, 21 ratings
- Logistics division:
2 officers, 4 PO, 24 ratings
- Weapons- and Electronics
division:
2 officers, 3 PO, 12 ratings
- Technical Division:
4 officers, 1 PO, 13 ratings

On overseas operations she will plus up the crew

Crew
The crew size during deployment to Operation OCEAN SHIELD will be around 155. The
permanent crew will be supplemented by a number of specialists from the Royal Danish
Army, the Royal Danish Air Force, the Navy’s corps of Frogmen, and the naval Military
Police.

HDMS Absalon is equipped with 2 RHIBs which are used for normal personnel transfer and during Man
Over Board (MOB) operations. Furthermore HDMS Absalon can carry and handle up to two medium size
helicopters (Merlin-size)

SENSORS:
SMART-S Air surveillance radar
TERMA Surface surveillance radar
FURUNO Navigation radars
FLIR Infrared camera
4 x CEROS Fire control radars with TV, laser and electro optics
EDO Electronic Support Measure
ATLAS Medium Range sonar with Mine Avoidance
For Command, Control and Communication purposes Absalon uses UHF- VHF- HF and SATCOM
supporting; TV, phone, fax, WWW, LAN and classified networks.

WEAPONS:
1 x 127mm gun Anti air/surface gun including naval fire support.
2 x 35mm gun Close in weapon system (CIWS)
8 x 12,7mm Heavy machine gun
HARPOON Surface-surface missile
SEASPARROW Surface-air missile
STINGER Anti air
MU-90 torpedoes Subsurface warfare
CHAFF Anti ship missile defence

FLEX-deck
Absalon has a feature that makes it unique compared to other navy vessels. Besides being able to fight as a
standard frigate it has the capability to carry a wide variety of material and personnel due to the FLEX-deck
layout. The FLEX-deck can be compared to a “ferry-deck”
and the size of the deck makes it possible for Absalon to
support many different kinds of capacities.
Via the aft hatch HDMS Absalon can load items with a size
and weight equivalent to the weight of a tank (62 t) from the
Danish Army. Adjacent compartments and holds are also an
integrated part of the FLEX-deck.

I find it interesting how small their Weapons and Technical divisions are.

Ours are the biggest divisions on the ship.
 

Halifax Tar

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Well that attempt at dark sarcasm backfired big time. My apologies, sincerely.


(When first glancing at the post, leaving with 254 and coming back with roughly 200 had me scratching my head. I had taken Stalker into account, but hadn’t realized the air det had come back early (which makes total sense.))
No sweat my friend. All in good conversation :)
 

Kirkhill

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I find it interesting how small their Weapons and Technical divisions are.

Ours are the biggest divisions on the ship.

Even with larger divisions you still deliver more capability per salary than the army does. The army could be doing better by making better use of available technology rather than counting bayonets.
 
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