Fmr MCpl Patrik Mathews - facing U.S. federal charges/alleged white supremacist

[larry Strong]

Remember "SHARP" training??......this will probably be worse.........

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/military-faces-calls-to-train-soldiers-to-identify-neo-nazis-hate-group-members-1.4560275




Cheers
Larry

 

[Remius]

Remember "SHARP" training??......this will probably be worse.........

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/military-faces-calls-to-train-soldiers-to-identify-neo-nazis-hate-group-members-1.4560275




Cheers
Larry

Meh, just do a survey lol.

 

[The Bread Guy]

And as predicted CanadaLand breathlessly reports that "WE HAVE A NAZI PROBLEM IN CANADA!"

Go to the 23 minute of this podcast.
https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/227-scandal-what-scandal/

Full quote from Jesse during a 1 minute summary of this and another Vice story from Nova Scotia:  "We have a Nazi problem and we have a Nazis with guns problem in Canada."

...what else is our media to think when they are utterly ignorant of the Canadian military?

With the exception of very, very few reporters trying hard to get it right, bang on.  That may also be a reflection (at least in part) that the military isn't glowing brightly on the radar of most Canadians in general.

 

[brihard]

>I'd rather the RCMP and political masters take precautionary actions to stop stupid, dangerous people from doing stupid, dangerous things.

I believe I understand the sentiment, and actually share it, but that is superceded (negated, in effect) by my belief that people have the right to be stupid and dangerous, to form associations among themselves, and to talk about stupid and dangerous things openly provided they are not conspiring to commit crimes or imminently going to commit one.

I welcome any plausible scenario which inspires confidence in the authorities.  Some scenarios that do not:

1. They didn't know about the group.
2. They knew about the group, but not the member.
3. They knew about the group and the guy, and assessed a threat meriting seizures and arrests, but chose not to act until recent circumstances forced their hand.  (Major embarrassment still to come if this is the case and facts to that effect emerge.)
4. They knew about the group and the guy, and assessed no threat meriting action at this time, but decided to stage a show because of political embarrassment.

If the group is such a problem, I would have expected a lot of other noise before now and more to follow.  Otherwise I am inclined to view this as (4).

If I had to make a guess I’d go with 2. Certainly the group would have been on the radar by virtue of the postering campaign at a minimum, and probably criminal intelligence sharing with US authorities. Knowing they exist though, it would have been challenging to attach that to a specific individual. It appears the reporter’s infiltration of the network achieved that.

Out of curiosity did you catch the first WFP article about the infiltration of the group before it went behind a paywall? It was, to say the least, concerning in its relegations of concrete preparation for violent conflict and their hopes of inviting a ‘race war’. If a CAF member is tied to same, that IS a big deal. We aren’t talking about simply ‘harassing gangs’ here. The white supremacist movement has national security implications.

If an organization says they want a violent political conflict, and if they actively travel and train with weapons, and if they trough infiltration of the military acquire skill sets that would be dangerous if misused, why should that not be taken very seriously?

A lot of the national security world has to work in that blurry space that exists before concrete plots or conspiracies can be said to exist. Disrupting and preventing mobilization to action or the development or viable plots are valid approaches. Putting some heat on an identified threat before plans solidify can help to dissuade them. We also know well by now how quickly someone can move along the spectrum of radicalization and mobilize towards violent action. Would you have our national security infrastructure simply assume that anything they detect has progressed no further than is readily apparent to investigators?

You identify one of these individuals, taking their guns away is at least a good start. And even at that there is satisfactory due process in place.

 

[Cloud Cover]

this is why shoddy, irrational, outrage orientated, undercover styled “investigative journalism” creates more problems than it solves, and it serves interests and purposes that run counter to law and justice. 

If the evidence that lead to the search, seizure, arrest and possible charges are in large part based on this journalist, and if that moron goes writing about it, claims privilege over sources, embellished, changes, alters, withholds any of it or was contributing in any way to amping the behaviours, then this case may done - at least in criminal law.

And if the MND knew about this well beforehand, and used his political office to monitor and coordinate actions such as the recent request for a separate investigation, then he was possibly conspiring with the media or using information from the media unobjectively and for political purposes.

None of that takes away from the seriousness of the matter, but it taints the whole criminal case.

As for the military career, it sounds like his months were numbered anyway.

 

[mariomike]

If the evidence that lead to the search, seizure, arrest and possible charges are in large part based on this journalist, and if that moron goes writing about it,

Is name-calling necessary to make your point?

The reporter's name, by the way, is Ryan Thorpe,
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/biographies/484870951.html

 

[Remius]

this is why shoddy, irrational, outrage orientated, undercover styled “investigative journalism” creates more problems than it solves, and it serves interests and purposes that run counter to law and justice. 

If the evidence that lead to the search, seizure, arrest and possible charges are in large part based on this journalist, and if that moron goes writing about it, claims privilege over sources, embellished, changes, alters, withholds any of it or was contributing in any way to amping the behaviours, then this case may done - at least in criminal law.

What was shoddy and irrational about his journalism?

They start seeing posters from a known extremist group looking to recruit.  There's a story there so he tries to get one by going undercover.  once in he sees and hears things that make him decided that he needs to tell the police.  Sounds like a responsible citizen to me.

 

[brihard]

this is why shoddy, irrational, outrage orientated, undercover styled “investigative journalism” creates more problems than it solves, and it serves interests and purposes that run counter to law and justice. 

If the evidence that lead to the search, seizure, arrest and possible charges are in large part based on this journalist, and if that moron goes writing about it, claims privilege over sources, embellished, changes, alters, withholds any of it or was contributing in any way to amping the behaviours, then this case may done - at least in criminal law.

And if the MND knew about this well beforehand, and used his political office to monitor and coordinate actions such as the recent request for a separate investigation, then he was possibly conspiring with the media or using information from the media unobjectively and for political purposes.

None of that takes away from the seriousness of the matter, but it taints the whole criminal case.

As for the military career, it sounds like his months were numbered anyway.

That's all extremely speculative. Much of what you allude to would be caught in the process of getting a warrant- a judge or justice, in reading the Information to Obtain, would be looking at the sourcing of information. An ITO has to have full, frank, and fair disclosure, including exculpatory evidence. This is not a file that would have been investigated by the junior member of the local detachment. This would have been experienced members who know what must be done and how to do it properly.

I'm going to take a second to point out that your air-quoting of "investigative journalism" is unfair, as investigative journalism is exactly what it was and is part of what we should expect from our fourth estate. We expect our press to identify and to highlight problems within our society. It appears that that probably shone more light and offered more detail on something police were aware of generally, but with insufficient information to take action on. I'm bloody sure that they would not have acted solely based on the information presented in a single news article, and that probably this just helped that put together a few specific details that were lacking - attaching a 'who' to a 'what' for instance.

I do not see a problem being created by this journalist or his reporting. On the contrary he took a problem that already existed and dragged it kicking and screaming into the open. Charges may result; they may not. There may not have been offences quite yet committed, though it looks like if not, they were going to. In national security, a 'win' is often not the same as a court conviction. A win may be disrupting an organization of lone actor, prevent things from going further, and gaining more intelligence on what the bigger threat picture looks like. Again bear in mind that this is an organization that is known to operate on both sides of the border. We can safely assume that US authorities are working their side of it actively, and that there is communication across the border between authorities.

It would be foolish, I think, to predicate any angry declaration with 'If...' and then go on to assume that this investigation is dependent on a single investigative journalist's report. It would certainly be of value, but they need and would go on a lot more than just that.

 

[The Bread Guy]

… did you catch the first WFP article about the infiltration of the group before it went behind a paywall? ...

For the record, here's the link again to try, and here's a PDF version that's downloadable (too big to attach), all shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of Canada's Copyright Act.

It would be foolish, I think, to predicate any angry declaration with 'If...' and then go on to assume that this investigation is dependent on a single investigative journalist's report ...

True - if this was the case, this guy would already be locked up, right?

 

[Jarnhamar]

And as predicted CanadaLand breathlessly reports that "WE HAVE A NAZI PROBLEM IN CANADA!"

Go to the 23 minute of this podcast.
https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/227-scandal-what-scandal/

But on second thought, what else is our media to think when they are utterly ignorant of the Canadian military?

I can't remember the guys name off the top of my head, FBJ posted his video here a month or two ago. Ex RCMP intelligence contractor and terrorism expert. He was discussing among other things Canada adding names to the hate groups list or whatever.

I found it interesting when he spoke about Nazi's and how the last time actual Neo-Nazi's killed anyone in Canada was 20 years ago or something and it was one neo-nazi killing his own, also neo-nazi, brother.

 

[mariomike]

I can't remember the guys name off the top of my head,

I remember his name. I will not post it.

I found it interesting when he spoke about Nazi's and how the last time actual Neo-Nazi's killed anyone in Canada was 20 years ago or something and it was one neo-nazi killing his own, also neo-nazi, brother.

I think I can guess who you may be referring to.
https://www.thedominican.net/articles/droege.htm
Wolfgang Droege a white supremacist who spent three years in prison for attempting to overthrow the government of Eugenia Charles in Dominica, was reportedly shot dead in a suburban Toronto apartment on April 14, 2005.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>If an organization says they want a violent political conflict, and if they actively travel and train with weapons, and if they trough infiltration of the military acquire skill sets that would be dangerous if misused, why should that not be taken very seriously?

It should be taken seriously.

>that blurry space

Acknowledged.  This is the hard part.  As hobbies, people learn martial arts, learn weapons and collect them, shoot for sport including "combat"-style ranges, can read anything they please about weapons, tactics, strategy, etc.  People (and not just "whites") may speculate about a coming race war, believe they have to prepare for a coming race war, threaten a race war, start a race war.  Somewhere in that spectrum (at or before the last phase) intervention is imperative.  Up to some point, intervention is illiberal and the risk has to be tolerated.

I know we can handle a substantial degree of risk without over-reacting, because we've done so in the past where aggrieved gangs/groups with weapons are concerned.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"military-faces-calls-to-train-soldiers-to-identify-neo-nazis-hate-group-members"

Time and money.  The Res F particularly has limits to both.  Big picture, there are more pressing targets for finite resources.  Yes, it means accepting the risk with status quo.  Repeat the terms "opportunity cost" and "utilitarian" to the critics until they properly understand where their concerns fit in.

As for the proto-totalitarians out there concern-trolling in the media, my private life (friends, associations, activities) was none of the government's - or the leadership's - damn business when I was a reservist.  Without cause to go poking around, we don't - full stop.

 

[Remius]

I remember his name. I will not post it.

I think I can guess who you may be referring to.
https://www.thedominican.net/articles/droege.htm
Wolfgang Droege a white supremacist who spent three years in prison for attempting to overthrow the government of Eugenia Charles in Dominica, was reportedly shot dead in a suburban Toronto apartment on April 14, 2005.

Droege was killed by a delusional drug user not a fellow new Nazi.  I don't remember that incident but I do remember the issues the reform party had at the time with white supremacists infiltrating the party and him being kicked out.

 

[mariomike]

Droege was killed by a delusional drug user not a fellow new Nazi. 

May also have involved an argument over a woman. Wasn't much to go on in Reply #69. Droege was my guess.

A bit more on Wolfgang,

In 1994, Mr. Droege's ambitions of creating a racist mass-movement in Canada were dealt a significant blow when it emerged that his right-hand man in the Heritage Front was in fact a Canadian Security Intelligence Service mole named Grant Bristow.

Michael Boudreau, a professor of criminology at St. Thomas University who studies hate groups, said Mr. Droege was finished politically after the Bristow affair.

"I think he felt betrayed by that," Prof. Boudreau said. "People questioned his leadership. How astute is Droege that he fell victim to a government spy?"

He added that Mr. Droege's death marks the end of an era for the extreme right.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/droege-killed-by-friend-police-say/article978842/

 

[Jarnhamar]

I remember his name. I will not post it.

Why not?

I think I can guess who you may be referring to.

I'm not too sure.

I felt like the point he was trying to drive home was that while Neo-Nazis C18 and Blood & Honour are reprehensible they may not be the nation shattering security risk they're being made out to be.

Which leads me to a weird moments reflection of mine and how much the medias shapes our lives.

When Russel Williams committed his crimes I didn't feel tarnished by his actions at all. Nothing to do with me or my service. He's a psycho murder that just happened to work in the same 95'000 strong corporation that I do.

The other day I (white,shaved head, beard, tattoos) was in uniform walking past crowds of Muslim men women and children in what appeared to be a predominately Muslim neighborhood*.  My first thought was I wonder if they think I'm a neo-nazi like that MCpl allegedly is. And it was such a weird thing because I've never thought of someone seeing me like that before.

Why would that pop in my head?  Is it because Canada (including the military) has "a neo-nazi problem"? Numbers don't seem to support that.
Guilty by association? I don't feel associated with other CAF members doing stupid shit.
Is it because the media has pushed a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) narrative these last few years that conservatives mean right wing and right wing means racists and nazis?

:Tin-Foil-Hat:

*want to mention they were absolutely polite and friendly with me. Hit some of em with the old you like army video games? how about camping and shooting guns? Suckers.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Sometimes early takes on stories become amusing as details emerge over time.  Current headlines on cbc.ca:

"Reservist suspected of neo-Nazi ties prompts questions about whether signals missed by military" (older)

"Top general says military started dealing with suspected neo-Nazi in the spring" (newer)

The how-did-they-miss-what-the-reporter-found story is dead; emphasis should shift to regardless-we-need-more-precautions (a "system" will never be perfect, so the latter is evergreen; no mitigation can ever converge on goalposts as they recede into the distance).

 

[Monsoon]

The how-did-they-miss-what-the-reporter-found story is dead; emphasis should shift to regardless-we-need-more-precautions (a "system" will never be perfect, so the latter is evergreen; no mitigation can ever converge on goalposts as they recede into the distance).

Perhaps eventually things will swing around to the "How did something the military was dealing with for months end up on the front page of a newspaper followed shortly by a high-profile arrest, days after MND announced his anti-racism initiative two months before an election?" angle.

Nah, it never seems to make it that far, does it.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I remember his name. I will not post it.

Just curious but why?

 

[mariomike]

I just don't buy into the ideas he's selling. I see no need to promote him.