Field photo's of 4CMBG

[larry Strong]

Hi All

I am looking for photo's of 4 CMBG in the field on ex during the '80s. I would like both "on the move" and deployed if possible. I am about to start recreating - as time permits - the Bde for tabletop wargaming using Rapid Fire rules. I did search the forum, however nothing showed up.

Many thanks in advance for your help

Sincerely
Larry

 

[larry Strong]

apparantly there are no pictures available. No biggie.

What vehicles did the Blowpipe detatchments use?


Thanks
Larry

 

[SeaKingTacco]

5/4 ton trucks

 

[larry Strong]

Thanks for the info

 

[Danjanou]

Larry I have some. Not at home now when I do will scan /email them to you. Interested in these rules too.

 

[larry Strong]

Larry I have some. Not at home now when I do will scan /email them to you. Interested in these rules too.

Hello Danjanou


Many thanks, it is truly appreciated

Larry

 

[larry Strong]

Looking for some help here. I have a picture of 3 M 113's with TOW from 3 RCR out of the book Canada's NATO Brigade: A History

ACP125 Canadian Supplement  - in the fixed call sign section Infantry Bn has the Armoured Defense Plt as C/S 55 etc. These have the C/S 71 which acording to ACP125 is for Attd Sub-Unit Under Comd? what does this indicate?

Also how come they don't have CFR plates on them?


Many thanks
Larry

 

[Edward Campbell]

In the first iteration of fix call signs (1960s) Sp Coy elements were in C/S 7. It looked something like this:

7  - Bn A Ech/Sp Coy HQ
71 - A/Tk Pl                      )
72 - Pnr Pl                        }  I'm not sure I have the order right
73 - MG Pl                        )
74 - Mor Pl                          74 was certainly Mor Pl, I am 100% sure
75 - Maint Pl                        I think

HQ Coy had 0, 8 and 9

0A -      Bn CP
0B -      Bn Alt CP
0C -      Step Up CP (for those units, like 2RCR, that had one)
8 -        Recce Pl
81~      Ptl Dets
82~      Surv Dets
9 -        CO
9A -      DCO
9B -      Ops O
91 -      Sig O
91 A~ - Sig Pl Dets


Edit: typo

 

[Edward Campbell]

Re: CFR plates ... as I recall, maybe faulty, none of our armoured vehicles had those CFR plates. I'm not even sure there were any on our wheeled vehicles ... I'm trying to visualize my rover and I think it had no plate, but I'm officially old so ...

 

[Old Sweat]

Re: CFR plates ... as I recall, maybe faulty, none of our armoured vehicles had those CFR plates. I'm not even sure there were any on our wheeled vehicles ... I'm trying to visualize my rover and I think it had no plate, but I'm officially old so ...

I don't recall plates on any of our military vehicles in CANFE (Canadian Army National Force Europe), but Edward and I served in Germany in the sixties. On my return to Canada to take the Artillery Staff Course in Shilo, I was a bit astounded to see Manitoba farm vehicle plates on the M113A1s at the school. The CFR plates, it seems to me, came in for vehicles in Canada in the late sixties or early seventies to standardize plates across the country. (There were hiccups. Typically 5 Brigade et al vehicles had two plates - CFR and Quebec - for quite a few years.)

 

[George Wallace]

In the early Eighties, only the B Vehicles had CFR Lic plates.  All AFVs had their CFR stenciled on in black paint, front left and right on M113 family, front left and right on turrets of Leopards, etc.  In the late Eighties and early Nineties, the CFR, and Tac signs, were changed from black to white.  Even in Canada, the CFR was stenciled in the same locations, but still only in black paint.  For instance, you will find it on the front left of the M113 under the Driver's hatch and on the right side under the exhaust.

 

[larry Strong]

Many thanks Gentlemen, it is greatly appreciated. When did they start mounting the TOW on the 113?

 

[Edward Campbell]

Many thanks Gentlemen, it is greatly appreciated. When did they start mounting the TOW on the 113?

I don't recall; I served in the field in the pre-TOW days, in the late '60s and early '70s, when we were replacing the 106mm recoilless rifle with with the (French) SS11B and ENTAC. I guess our experience with them confirmed our faith in ATGMs but, way down deep in my heart, I still have a soft spot for high velocity, fire and forget, anti-tank guns.

 

[larry Strong]

Thanks for that Edward

Does anyone have a time line on the TOW missiles use in Canada, or when the C/S changed, so I could put some sort of date on this picture?


Many thanks
Larry

 

[Ostrozac]

I'm pretty sure Sean Maloney talks about the introduction of TOW missiles in his book "War Without Battles". In fact, that book will be extremely useful for your project.

You should probably read "First Clash", too, which is a fictional account of the Canadian Brigade fighting WWIII, but I haven't read it so I can't recommend it. I only read "Team Yankee", which is a fictional account of a US Army M1 and M113 unit fighting in the 80's.

 

[Old Sweat]

Does anyone have a time line on the TOW missiles use in Canada, or when the C/S changed, so I could put some sort of date on this picture?

I had done some research yesterday, but part of it was inconclusive.

Anyway, the TOW entered service with the US Army in 1970 and came into Canadian service a few years later. I recall a conversation with the infantry lieutenant colonel who headed the DLR infantry section crica 1972. He said Treasury Board initially had objected to the TOW procurement as it could be used for offensive prurposes and Canada would only fight on the defence. Their rationale was that one of its stated roles was supporting counter-attacks. I could not make this sort of stuff up.

It must have entered service with the next couple of years because it was being taught in the Infantry School when I was posted into the Artillery School in 1974. In one of those brilliant moves that come back to bite us on the butt, in an effort to reduce the size of the training bill, the advanced anti-armour course was cut and the positions in the wing moved/deleted/retasked. The rationale was that TOW was so simple, it could be considered a "hey you" weapons system. Fast ahead to the 1980s when I was the Canadian Forces Liaison Officer at US Army Tradoc. There was a push to get a TOW simulator and I checked with the local industry rep from the "TOW company." He told me that the CF had the worst record for successful engagements in training of any of their foreign customers. The infantry shop at FMCHQ did not take kindly to the news and insisted it all could be solved with a simulator.  I got doing some more digging and found a young ex-armoured TDO who told me he had done a study of TOW results and the successes and failures had nothing to do with regiment, formation or access to training facilities. The battalions where the CO took an interest in his armoured defence platoon had a much better success rate than those where the platoon was relegated to the status of a necessary evil or a dumping ground. There was, of course, no stated minimum standard for armoured defence then, but that was the case for everything else at the time. Could I document this? H.ll no, but that is how I remember it, and I have a reputation for a very good memory. (Learning from and using the knowledge is another matter.) It's a bit of a sidetrack, but some of this might be useful.

 

[larry Strong]

Many thanks, much appreciated.

I guess were are left with the call sign then.

sincerely
Larry

 

[larry Strong]

I'm pretty sure Sean Maloney talks about the introduction of TOW missiles in his book "War Without Battles". In fact, that book will be extremely useful for your project.

You should probably read "First Clash", too, which is a fictional account of the Canadian Brigade fighting WWIII, but I haven't read it so I can't recommend it. I only read "Team Yankee", which is a fictional account of a US Army M1 and M113 unit fighting in the 80's.

Thanks for that. I will start looking for it. I have owned First Clash since it came out, it is pretty dog eared as I have read it countless times.

later
Larry

 

[George Wallace]

Many thanks, much appreciated.

I guess were are left with the call sign then.

sincerely
Larry

In the first iteration of fix call signs (1960s) Sp Coy elements were in C/S 7. It looked something like this:

7  - Bn A Ech/Sp Coy HQ
71 - A/Tk Pl                      )
72 - Pnr Pl                        }  I'm not sure I have the order right
73 - MG Pl                        )
74 - Mor Pl                          74 was certainly Mor Pl, I am 100% sure
75 - Maint Pl                        I think

Edward answered it to the best of his recollection, with C/S 71 being the Anti-Tank Platoon, who would be armed with the TOW.

 

[larry Strong]

Hello George

I saw that thanks. I was wondering when they changed from 71 to 55.

Thanks
Larry