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Facial covering/courts-elections-etc. (merged)

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GEO
    In March 1936 Hitler ordered his troops into the Rhineland and REOCCUPIED this part of this the
most industrialised area of Germany This part of Germany had been demilitarized by the allies under
terms laid out in the Versailles Treaty,this was placed under the control of the French who being
the French proceeded to take every economic advantage as possible from the situation.The French
withdrew their forces in 1930 and the area remained a demilitarized area until Hitler moved in,in
defiance of the Versailles Treaty.This was his first test of the resolve of the western allies and it was
found wanting and led his futher aggressive moves, the results we all know.
  As for parallel societies,I can only say there are non so blind as those who will not see.
                                  Regards
 

Zell_Dietrich

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I remember being a scrutineer during a federal election DT Toronto.  Veiled Muslims aren't allowed to show themselves to men. Simple solution, have the female clerk check the identification.  I thought this was just how it was done; take them to the side and have a female employee check.  Easily done,  shows respect for the her choices and allowes for certainty. Besides,  if memory serves I was basically the only guy there for 90% of the day.

The issue I had a problem with was how husbands were allowed behind the screens with their wives.  Why not just stop the pretense and give the husband two ballots?
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Zell_Dietrich said:
The issue I had a problem with was how husbands were allowed behind the screens with their wives.  Why not just stop the pretense and give the husband two ballots?
Wow,
and if I went with my wife to vote at the same time would you say the same thing?
 

Sassy

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The Librarian said:
Good point Geo.

It's funny that many here are presuming that the vast majority of Muslim women are forced to wear their headscarves, veils etc while here in Canada. Usually though, that is not the case, it is a choice they make based upon the depth of their religious faith.

I had many great conversations in Damascus with a Muslim woman with whom I became friends and whose home I had been invited into to dine. Although she was veiled (a sign of religious faith for them) outside the home, her conversations with me outside the home were...normal. Inside her home, the veil was removed (it was replaced for prayer calls) and the conversations remained...normal.

Her husband cooked, cleaned, made tea and awesome Turkish coffee, and geez they even had some PDAs while I was there!! Imagine that.

What I am trying to say, for those of you (not you Geo) so disposed, do not presume that because a woman chooses to wear a veil as an expression of faith in her God, that she is opressed and is treated as a second class citizen. There certainly are examples of oppresive governments, dictatorships and regimes which have made it this way in some nations, but do not presume that is the norm and the belief for the average Muslim; you would be wrong.

Your opinion only.  you do  not decide for me when I'm right or wrong.  

I'v known and worked with Muslim woman and not all choose to wear the veil but are bullied into wearing one by their family and husbands.  It's not fair to Muslim women and children to deny the ugly aspects of Islam, those whom immigrate here hoping for a better life only to find out they are forced to endure the less desirable aspects of Muslim/Hindu cultural laws because the socialist's agenda of "Absolute Tolerance or else" shuts down any negative dialog lest we offend.  The socialist's ethos does offend me because hiding behind PCness kills women every year because of the socialists' attitude of "lest we offend".   I've worked in women's shelters where women from all walks of life including Muslim women scared to death they flee after years of being beaten and it's gotten worse since September 11 for Muslim women.  Radicals Islam is blossoming in Canada and that includes forcing woman to wear burkas and become a Muslim wife version 1805 . Socialists run around pontificating blah blah, Islam is peaceful, well I beg to differ. The socialist agenda of WE speak for the oppressed and abused is utter gut rot, the Hindu community went public about rampart spousal abuse in their community and if we are to protect female immigrants we need to stop denying that certain religions visa vie culture deny equaility and abuse woman.  I have no issue with those who choose to wear the veil, I loathe the burka and all that it stands for but I repect a woman's right to make that choice herself but for those women that are forced to live under Shariah Law in Canada I want a voice to speak for them because they live in fear.  All aspects of Canadian society hide spousal abuse, but how bad is it in communities that are enclaves of Islam?  I can  only imagine the horror some immigrants are forced to live with, "Lest we offend" the socialist cry babies.  Rant over.
 

observor 69

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geo said:
You're right...

But "we" are the ones who have created the tempest in the teapot..and
they, the veiled ladies are the ones who are left with the unpleasant possibility of being harrassed from here to kingdom come

Actually  Geo....I was trying in my poor french way to simply point out that you are using the new Digital service of the Montreal Gazette while I still use the old .com link.  :D Sorry I didn't make that clear.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Sassy said:
All aspects of Canadian society hide spousal abuse,

and you can take a long hard bite of my @#%.  A pathetic remark.....
 

geo

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+1 Bruce.

Christianity should not be the ones to cast the 1st stone about anything.
- Christians have been intolerant
- Christians have forced women to do this or that
- Christians have forced women into arranged marriages
yada, yada, yada.....

a pot calling the kettle black.
 

ArmyRick

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Sorry men, I agree with Sassy. Where do you guys live? How many muslims do you know? I know lots. I also know they do differ depending on where they are from (the guys i know from Turkey for example are very liberal muslims that practice very few of the cultures where as i have met Iranians who fully supported the stoning death of unmarried women giving birth).

Geo and Bruce, i disagree with you on this issue.

Bruce, how about an apology to sassy, she formulated a good, strong argument and you tell her to bite your arse? Not very DS of you. I have seen you clamp down on members for lesser remarks. NOT VERY IMPRESSED!
 

Jarnhamar

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Quote
Elections Canada said Muslim women will be allowed to wear the niqab, which leaves only a woman's eyes visible, if they sign a sworn statement attesting to their identity, show two pieces of identification and are accompanied by someone who can vouch for their identity.

A grade four student knows how to circumvent this one. Our politicians are scared to stand up for Canadian values, and bowing to what they percieve as a backlash from the Muslim community. Perhaps if we quit giving in, rolling over, and burying our heads in the sand, certain groups would stop pushing the issues and forcing their personal agendas, taking more and more, til we live under their rules.

Couldn't agree more recceguy.

What stupidity.

You know what, making them sign a piece of paper is probably against some kinda "right" of theirs here in Canada.  Lets just make them promise .  Maybe I'll show up in a sk mask with my drivers licence and promise it's me.  
Way to go Canada


Great remarks from Sassy too.
 

ArmyRick

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One more for you, Bruce. When I asked earlier about imagine a catholic kid making anti-semitic remarks, I was refering to modern times here and now. We all know that Hitler is one of, if not, the most evil person to exist.

Now again, here in 2007, in Toronto, imagine a white catholic kid waving an irish or german flag and screaming "death to the jews". YOU KNOW exactly how it would turn out.

How come the kids driving around last summer waving Hezbollah flags were not charged with a hate crime when they screamed theri racist remarks? We have to draw line, we are a TOLERANT people but I don't know when that means we allow oppressive behaviour of any kind. Culture or not.

Maybe you would remember the Kenyan woman being stoned to death for having a child unmarried?

How about stoning men to death for adultrey?

Nope, certain aspects of any culture that are cruel I do not support.

Don't get me wrong, Christian crusades of a 1,000 years ago where they slaughtered entire villages of muslims was just as evil and unaccetable. Take note that the Christians are not doing that in this day and age.

Everybody can chage for the better. And they should.

 

Bruce Monkhouse

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ArmyRick said:
Sorry men, I agree with Sassy. Where do you guys live? How many muslims do you know? I know lots. I also know they do differ depending on where they are from (the guys i know from Turkey for example are very liberal muslims that practice very few of the cultures where as i have met Iranians who fully supported the stoning death of unmarried women giving birth).

Geo and Bruce, i disagree with you on this issue.

Bruce, how about an apology to sassy, she formulated a good, strong argument and you tell her to bite your arse? Not very DS of you. I have seen you clamp down on members for lesser remarks. NOT VERY IMPRESSED!
Telling me I [All aspects] might be complacent in any way shape or form of hiding spousal abuse?? I certainly will not and IMO she owes a VERY LARGE segment of Canadian people an apology.

....and I live and work in Southern Ontario, you know, where some people seem to think they are" taking over our institutions".


Sorry children, I'm as "right-wing" as they come but I refuse to hate an individual for some of the shortcomings of the larger groups. I most wholeheartedly agree that they must  be able to identify themselves positivity, BUT, the problem is not with them asking, its that the answer wasn't "NO" right off the bat and then this whole them/us whinefest never would have happened.

None of this is the fault of those who would ask.......


And for the Christians not killing right now?? Phfft........
 

proudnurse

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Sassy said:
  All aspects of Canadian society hide spousal abuse,

Hmmm... I know that I am already quoting the same thing, but this has caught my eye also. Sassy, in reading your post I read that you stated you have worked in a Womens Shelter. So, since there are such things as shelters, how does the statement "all aspects of canadian society" hide abuse make much sence? In working in a shelter, I am sure that you are well aware, of the many programs and support available to women and their children through any shelter. And as well, the several donations of food and clothing that come in quite regularily from outside sources. I don't think that we are "hiding" this at all, I tend to think that we are becoming more aware.

~Rebecca

Edited to add: There was something else I am pondering a bit. I truly do not feel it is a fair generalization to say that the women are "bullied" into wearing a Burka. From my own experience in meeting a Muslim woman that I went to school with, the Burka was her personal choice and she wore it with a pride of her own. Honestly, there are many women in our society, from different Religions, backgrounds and walks of life that are "controlled" or "bullied" by thier own partners in many different ways. There are too many examples to be written. And I am not thinking of a Burka when I sit here and think of the many examples.
 

eerickso

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It is irrelevant whether moslem women choose to wear the burqa or not. To me, this issue is very simple, in my culture (Canadian culture), people expose their faces when communicating to other people. If you are unwilling to participate in Canadian society, go back to your country of origin.

I hope that Canadians eventually realize they have the right to determine their future. Finally, Europe is starting to realize this.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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So if my wife decides to wear one she must go back to........Canada??.........and if I approve I must go back to...Canada??...................easy there blackshirt.
 

vonGarvin

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Baden  Guy said:
  The GTA is home to one of the largest, and growing, population of immigrants in Canada. It is a strain on communities to absorb such large concentrated numbers as they adapt to Canadian values and culture.

  The GTA is also home to the counter-terrorism investigation that led to the arrests of 17 people accused of plotting bombings of Toronto targets.
Two events that occur close in proximity are not necessarily related.
 

stukirkpatrick

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It is irrelevant whether moslem women choose to wear the burqa or not. To me, this issue is very simple, in my culture (Canadian culture), people expose their faces when communicating to other people. If you are unwilling to participate in Canadian society, go back to your country of origin.

Thats a pretty extreme generalization.  Just because somebody dresses in a different manner than you does not mean that they are an immigrant.  If you go back far enough, we all come from a different region of origin!  

You should take a closer look at Canadian culture.  
A significant means of communication is in fact not face-to-face.  Welcome to the internet.
 

vonGarvin

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I think that given this thread has gone "reductio ad Hitlerum", it's time to lock it up as the original intent of the topic is long past and now being discussed are such things as to whether or not moslems should wear certain articles of clothing, especially since non-moslems are trying to put forth their opinions as to what moslems should or should not wear.  
 

Jarnhamar

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especially since non-moslems are trying to put forth their opinions as to what moslems should or should not wear. 

In general they can wear whatever they want.
When they vote in Canada they should be required to provide photo id AND prove visually that it is infact them.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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...and that is in fact what happened. They met the same criteria as everyone else as they should have, I guess they will have to find another way to rule "My Canada". ::)

Locked,...............if you have something new and worthwhile to add, contact a Moderator.
 
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