F-35 and Canadian Navy

[Jantor]

How about a 39,000 ton "Polar 8" icebreaker with 16" guns. That'll learn em!  >

 

[munky99999]

Um?  Isn't Trenton in Southern Ontario?

Well I’m in Windsor, to drive to Toronto its 4 hours, assuming your driving the speed limit. To get to Trenton is 6 hours from Windsor. Same thing for MEadford-Borden 6 or more hours.

But I guess that must be so difficult for munky99999  to travel to once a year LOL

Never been a cadet ever in my life. The base would also be for air reserves and regular force.

Again, why would Canada need a BB? 

you didnt read my post at all did you?

Nuclear powerplant. Canada could never build nor commission such a beast. USA could obviously.

Lets give you a scenario, you've become the MND (though whatever post you get will probably be becuase of nepotism)

So you don’t read my post and then insult me? Hell I’m 6’ 5” now that’s way to tall to ever be on any navy boat.

a battleship now? Please....what next a dreadnought?? How about a seaplane carrier for good measure.

Another person not reading my post at all and then insulting me. I said I would love to see a BB DESIGNED not built. DESIGNED means the furthest you go is autocad not building at all. Right after that I said Canada could never build such a boat. I like the IOWA class, but its from WW2 with upgrades. They should start from scratch and design an entirely new BB.

 

[Inch]

Well I’m in Windsor, to drive to Toronto its 4 hours, assuming your driving the speed limit. To get to Trenton is 6 hours from Windsor. Same thing for MEadford-Borden 6 or more hours.Never been a cadet ever in my life. The base would also be for air reserves and regular force.

Ok, I'll now explain how it is in real life. We have enough problems with noise complaints in places like Moose Jaw, Cold Lake, Bagotville and Portage la Prairie, let alone putting jets or helos near a major city centre not to mention that Southern Ontario is home to the most congested airspace in all of Canada. Where are these Southern Ontario based jets/helos going to train? Over the built up areas that are all over the place there? Or transit an hour or two to somewhere they can train? At least in Halifax/Shearwater we can head out to sea to train, you don't really have that option in Southern Ontario and especially if you're travelling at 6-10 miles per minute like jets do.

 

[Sheerin]

you didnt read my post at all did you?

I did.  And I was just questioning why Canada in your vision would need a BB.  You know, for reasons other than LCF (Look Cool Factor)

So you don’t read my post and then insult me? Hell I’m 6’ 5” now that’s way to tall to ever be on any navy boat.

Congratulations on your stature. 

Another person not reading my post at all and then insulting me. I said I would love to see a BB DESIGNED not built. DESIGNED means the furthest you go is autocad not building at all. Right after that I said Canada could never build such a boat. I like the IOWA class, but its from WW2 with upgrades. They should start from scratch and design an entirely new BB.

You say it would be nice to have one, but don't give any reason why.  Just about everyone who posts on this forum knows that Canada will never get one, let alone design one from scratch.  I'm personally just curious as to why you want us to get one, and what role it will fulfill. 

 

[FSTO]

A BB for Canada?

I know I can get one from Daisy, but I don't think it will have the range or hitting power required for NGS. ;D

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Matthew: as the Brits have also raised the bar of requirements to replace the Invincible class, they are ending up with drawings and no replacement ships. They ought to do their proof of concept, pick a practical design and quickly get on with it or it will never happen. The economy is going to eventually go into the crap-tank, and with that the defence budget for capital equipment will be a floater. 

I'm not saying customize something from scratch.....In fact, I agree with your premise that allocating funds now and getting construction underway ASAP should be the priority.  It's just that while they've got they're CAD/CAM design up on the screen (especially if we're talking about Schelde with their modular design construction), when they ask us to specify the sizes for hangar facilities and elevators that we provide measurements that allow for F-35B and/or CH-47 as opposed to "just enough space for a Cyclone".


Matthew. 

 

[FSTO]

Since the Chinook isn't navalized (very important for storage and work in the sea environment) maybe we should be looking at the new Sea Stallion (CH-53 K).
Just a thought.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Another person not reading my post at all and then insulting me. I said I would love to see a BB DESIGNED not built. DESIGNED means the furthest you go is autocad not building at all. Right after that I said Canada could never build such a boat. I like the IOWA class, but its from WW2 with upgrades. They should start from scratch and design an entirely new BB.

Then what you are proposing is a waste of time and rescources something the CF does not need to be involved in when our navy has other priorties. :

 

[munky99999]

I did.  And I was just questioning why Canada in your vision would need a BB.  You know, for reasons other than LCF (Look Cool Factor)

In my post I even SAID Canada cant build such a beast; NOR commission. SOOOOO I have already stated that CANADA DOES NOT NEED a BB.

At least in Halifax/Shearwater we can head out to sea to train, you don't really have that option in Southern Ontario and especially if you're travelling at 6-10 miles per minute like jets do.

I was under the impression that the military doesn't have to worry about such problems. Moreover, IF you put it roughly 1 hour away from Windsor there are alot of large farms. Hell I live near the airport in Windsor and I can never hear planes even with the big airbus and hercules sized planes are huge.

Then what you are proposing is a waste of time and rescources something the CF does not need to be involved in when our navy has other priorties.

Well I never said the CF have any involvment in designing a BB.

 

[Inch]

I was under the impression that the military doesn't have to worry about such problems. Moreover, IF you put it roughly 1 hour away from Windsor there are alot of large farms. Hell I live near the airport in Windsor and I can never hear planes even with the big airbus and hercules sized planes are huge.

Nope, you were wrong, we have to worry about it more so than any other operator due to the low levels that we routinely fly at. Ever had a Hornet fly 100 ft over you at 600 knots? It's quite loud, it vibrates your clothes and hair when it flys over you. Also, jets need somewhere to drop bombs, I'm pretty sure the farmers in Southern Ontario would be quite averse to having their soy beans bombed to oblivion. We have an air weapons range in Cold Lake so why would we move jets to Southern Ontario? Even if you want to pull the "intercept" card, like I said, at 10 miles per minute, Trenton works just fine to defend the Southern Ontario skies if need be.  Hercs travel great distances, Windsor to Trenton isn't a great distance so they're fine where they are. Same goes for the Airbuses. Helos already are at almost every Wing plus the 3 major army bases. SAR is based where they're needed, IE the coasts and Trenton.

So, I see no real need to establish an air base in Southern Ontario, period.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Well considering this topic was about the Cdn Navy and the F35 , why even bring it up?

 

[Sheerin]

In my post I even SAID Canada cant build such a beast; NOR commission. SOOOOO I have already stated that CANADA DOES NOT NEED a BB.

So why even bring it up? 

As for this thread, I think its dead.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

As long as there are no more needless posts on warships that will never be built again....I think we can keep it open.

 

[Sheerin]

Fair enough...

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Reopened based upon a couple of request, if it strays off topic again it will be locked again and remained locked.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

The main reason for carriers of any size is generally projection of power.  Canada has nowhere and no need to project such power, so why would we build them?  As for the use of an amphibious assault ship, WWII was the last time we conducted such an operation.  I use the argument constantly that we need to maintain levels of knowledge (such as amphibious landing), but at this point there are greater priorities.  Especially when our primary focus is a landlocked nation (Afghanistan).

I don't know much about the navy, but I can estimate that the resources in terms of personnel, maintenance and training to get to a proficient level for even one ship of this nature is astounding.  We're not even getting a new maritime service helo to replace the Sea King until Nov. of 2008.  I would love to see us have these capabilities, but right now we're fighting to keep what we already have running.  Too much dreaming, not enough reality.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Considering the worlds navies are starting to focus on littoral operations it only makes sense we look at gaining an amphib capability.

 

[Loachman]

I was under the impression that the military doesn't have to worry about such problems. Moreover, IF you put it roughly 1 hour away from Windsor there are alot of large farms. Hell I live near the airport in Windsor and I can never hear planes even with the big airbus and hercules sized planes are huge.

One of many reasons that 400 Squadron moved from Downsview to Borden was because of the increasing urbanization and resultant noise complaints around Downsview. Yes, we DO have to worry about such problems - we exist to serve the public, not keep them awake - even those stupid enough to buy houses adjacent to an active airfield. Modern airliners are designed to be quiet. Military aircraft, especially fighters and helicopters, are not.

Also, farm country is far from ideal for flying training areas. The minimum legal tactical altitude for the CH146 is fifteen feet above obstacles. One can spook a lot of cows and horses whipping around at 60-100 knots at that altitude for a couple of hours. Aside from irritating farmers (YOU might not hear aircraft very well, but every last one of them does), Her Royal Majesty gets to reimburse them for any injured, lost, or dead animals and ruined fences and that neither amuses her nor her sundry agents, Squadron COs included. I was the guy that got to deal with some of those farmers and such in a couple of positions that I've held and it's not a trivial matter. That's another reason that 400 Squadron moved - Borden puts it a lot closer to the Muskoka region, where there are way fewer cows and horses.

Whenever something is done or not done in the CF, it's usually done or not done for very good reasons (political interference aside), and a lot of very smart and highly experienced people have put a considerable amount of time and effort into weighing all of the pertinent factors before arriving at a decision.

There are no valid or logical reasons (entertaining one town's Air Cadets is neither) for building an airbase near Windsor and many, many solid reasons for not.

 

[Spencer100]

Did we not enter East Timor by the Sea?  Using Ozzy (aussy) transport?  A small flat deck would a nice addition to the Canadian Forces.  Vote Conservative and you may just see it!

 

[munky99999]

Did we not enter East Timor by the Sea?  Using Ozzy (aussy) transport?  A small flat deck would a nice addition to the Canadian Forces.  Vote Conservative and you may just see it!

You posted this July 1st, 2006. How long until the next election? HeH.

You are right though. As for the original idea; I’ve been thinking about it and I am coming to the opinion that we don’t have all the man power to fill all the job placements required for an amphibious assault. In fact I agree the purchase of those supply ships; it indeed helps out the current naval situation greatly.