Establishment of Commanding Officer

[Lumber]

Trying to find the right reference but having trouble.

Who can be considered a member's "Commanding Officer"? There are many different actions that are either the right or responsibility of a member's Commanding Officer, such as DAODs related to misconduct and remedial measures.

If a member is attach-posted, is the CO of the unit that they are attached to their "CO", or is the CO of their home unit?

If a member is sent away to a training school on TD, with a loading message, but no where does the message say "attach-posted", is the member considered attach-posted?

Would the CO of the trg establishment in the above case have the authority to exercise any of the prerogatives laid out in the various DAODs, or would he have to refer to the home unit for action?

If the answer is no and he took action anyway, would those action be null and void?

Thanks guys.

 

[Good2Golf]

QR&O 4.20-4.61 defines a CO's responsibilities, and DAODs capture other limitations on the exercising of powers assigned by the CDS to a CO.  I think you are looking for more of a "who's your CAF boss when you're away from your unit" type of thing.  It depends on how you are away from your unit (and you can use where your pers file resides as a general guide).  On TD, your CO is still your CO.  Attach posted (which is not TD, of course), you have a new CO for the duration of your attach posting.  Note, your pers file would move to the new unit on an Attach Posting, but not on TD.  If a member away from their unit conducts themselves in a manner counter to any section of the NDA or any subordinate regulations, policies or directives, then they can expect that those within the chain of command of the organization to which they are temporarily assigned (I used that word specifically, and not 'attached') to institute any administrative or disciplinary measures that the NDA, QR&Os, DAODs or other policies or regulations provide.

Regards,
G2G

 

[Lumber]

QR&O 4.20-4.61 defines a CO's responsibilities, and DAODs capture other limitations on the exercising of powers assigned by the CDS to a CO.  I think you are looking for more of a "who's your CAF boss when you're away from your unit" type of thing.  It depends on how you are away from your unit (and you can use where your pers file resides as a general guide).  On TD, your CO is still your CO. Attach posted (which is not TD, of course), you have a new CO for the duration of your attach posting.  Note, your pers file would move to the new unit on an Attach Posting, but not on TD.  If a member away from their unit conducts themselves in a manner counter to any section of the NDA or any subordinate regulations, policies or directives, then they can expect that those within the chain of command of the organization to which they are temporarily assigned (I used that word specifically, and not 'attached') to institute any administrative or disciplinary measures that the NDA, QR&Os, DAODs or other policies or regulations provide.

Regards,
G2G

The highlighted bit in yellow seems to contradict what you said int he bit in orange.

The DAODs (and associated CANFORGENs) say that issuing a remedial measure is the responsibility of a member's CO. If the member is on TD, not attach-posted, you said in orange that their home unit CO is their CO, and the CO of the base/school where they are working doesn't have the authority to issue remedial measures. Your last sentence says the opposite, didn't it?

 

[Good2Golf]

No.  Your CO remains your CO if you are on TD, but 'Designated Staff' may also institute measures.  As with all things in life, "it depends."  If you mean remedial measures such as Initial Counseling, or Recorded Warning or Counseling and Probation, it depends.  Read up on DAOD 5019 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-0.page) to see who can do what to whom, at least as a start point.

Probably fair to say that most COs will be rather well-versed in DAOD 5019.  :nod:

Regards
G2G

 

[Lumber]

No.  Your CO remains your CO if you are on TD, but 'Designated Staff' may also institute measures.  As with all things in life, "it depends."  If you mean remedial measures such as Initial Counseling, or Recorded Warning or Counseling and Probation, it depends.  Read up on DAOD 5019 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-0.page) to see who can do what to whom, at least as a start point.

Probably fair to say that most COs will be rather well-versed in DAOD 5019.  :nod:

Regards
G2G

Here's where the conflict comes in. A member is on TD at a trg establishment. He get's in shit. The school places him on remedial measures, but his home unit CO disagrees with the choice of administrative action.

Can the home unit say "this remedial measure was issued by someone who wasn't your CO, therefore it's null and void; here's a new one", or
could he say, "you were issued this remedial measure, but I don't agree with it. As your permanent CO, I am amending cancelling it; here's a new one."?

 

[Kat Stevens]

I'm thinking that the officer in charge need only be "the CO", not necessarily "my CO" to have the full scope of powers over me within his particular AOR.  Voice of bitter experience only, not book learnin'.

 

[Good2Golf]

Here's where the conflict comes in. A member is on TD at a trg establishment. He get's in shit. The school places him on remedial measures, but his home unit CO disagrees with the choice of administrative action.

Can the home unit say "this remedial measure was issued by someone who wasn't your CO, therefore it's null and void; here's a new one", or
could he say, "you were issued this remedial measure, but I don't agree with it. As your permanent CO, I am amending cancelling it; here's a new one."?

If for anything other than prohibited drug use, sexual or alcohol misconduct, is the person in your example instituting the remedial measure of IC, RW or C&P (per DAOD 5019-4) on the following list?

• the commanding officer (CO) of the CAF member or the officer designated by the CO;
• the officer commanding the command or formation of the CAF member;
• the DMCA;
• the Director Military Careers (D Mil C);
• any officer of the rank of colonel or above at NDHQ;
• the DGMC or any other director general at NDHQ;
• the CMP; or
• the CDS.

If so, then yes, they can institute the remedial measure.  If not, they can apply any other measure that is supported by regulation or policy, but not IC, RW or C&P.

Regards
G2G

 

[FJAG]

Trying to find the right reference but having trouble.

Who can be considered a member's "Commanding Officer"? There are many different actions that are either the right or responsibility of a member's Commanding Officer, such as DAODs related to misconduct and remedial measures.

If a member is attach-posted, is the CO of the unit that they are attached to their "CO", or is the CO of their home unit?

If a member is sent away to a training school on TD, with a loading message, but no where does the message say "attach-posted", is the member considered attach-posted?

Would the CO of the trg establishment in the above case have the authority to exercise any of the prerogatives laid out in the various DAODs, or would he have to refer to the home unit for action?

If the answer is no and he took action anyway, would those action be null and void?

Thanks guys.

The definition of "Commanding Officer" comes from the definition in QR&O 1.02 and is expanded for disciplinary purposes under the CSD by QR&O 101.01.

Commanding officers are not so much in command of individuals but are designated/appointed to have command of bases, units or elements (which by implication then puts them in command of individuals who belong to the base, unit or element).

Note particularly 101.01(1)b.i. which states that the term "commanding officer" includes "in relation to an accused person ... the commanding officer of the base, unit, or element to which the accused belongs or ... of the base, unit or element in which the accused is present when proceedings are taken ..."

I think that when you deal with non CSD matters such as in DAOD 5019 it depends very much on the circumstances as the various provisions freely use terms such as "chain of command"; "initiating authority" etc rather than just "commanding officer" (or as in 5019-4 3.9 fourth bullet "the commanding officer of the CAF member".

Generally a CO will take responsibility over a matter that happens within his command unless specifically excluded by regulations. In most cases where the individual is on TD or otherwise "attached" and the event is one that wouldn't or shouldn't terminate the attachment, that CO would take action and advise the "home CO" of the matter. In more serious circumstances the attachment might be terminated with a report to the "home CO" so that appropriate career action could be taken at the "home unit".

Hope that helps a bit.

:cheers:

 

[Gunner98]

As indicated by FJAG, in most cases a member on TD or Course for whom remedial measures are under consideration should be RTU and dealt with by his home unit CO.  As a minimum TD/School CO should be contacting the home unit CO to discuss the individual and incident to ensure a clear transfer of information and for discussion of the best course of action by the "chain of command".  Instituting remedial measures by a TD/Course-related CO and a revocation upon return to home unit would indicate a lack of consistent expectations for conduct/deportment and performance.  In today's encrypted email and telephone-accessible environment, there shouldn't be any non-consultative, independent action taken against a person on course or TD.

 

[211RadOp]

• the commanding officer (CO) of the CAF member or the officer designated by the CO;

Using this bullet, the CO of the school could contact the home unit CO and explain what is going on.  The home unit CO could then designate the school CO the authority to give the remedial measures. This is only an e-mail away.

 

[Good2Golf]

• the commanding officer (CO) of the CAF member or the officer designated by the CO;

Using this bullet, the CO of the school could contact the home unit CO and explain what is going on.  The home unit CO could then designate the school CO the authority to give the remedial measures. This is only an e-mail away.

Exactly.  :nod:

 

[Lumber]

Alright everyone, all good points.

What if the school did not of this? What if the school didn't consult the home unit at all, and initiated remedial measures. Are those remedial measures valid?

 

[kratz]

Lumber,

At the extreme, I've witnessed an illegal release reversed through the redress system. In that example, the member did not chose to resume his career, but it did vindicate him, clear his name and place the spotlight within the RCN on who is in command of sailors at any given point.

 

[ModlrMike]

Alright everyone, all good points.

What if the school did not of this? What if the school didn't consult the home unit at all, and initiated remedial measures. Are those remedial measures valid?

I would think so. Notwithstanding the courtesy component, if the "temporary" CO acted within the scope of their powers, then the RM should still be valid.

 

[Gunner98]

Alright everyone, all good points.

What if the school did not of this? What if the school didn't consult the home unit at all, and initiated remedial measures. Are those remedial measures valid?

Lumber, can you be more specific about the remedial measure.  The areas of concern IAW DAOD 5019-4 become:
1. If the remedial measure results from a violation of orders or a breach of conduct which is clearly outlined in the School's standing orders, there must be adequate detail in describing the deficiency provided so that the necessary monitoring may occur and the remedial measure may be reviewed meaningfully by staff and third parties who are unfamiliar with the facts that gave rise to the measure. 
2. How can the initiating authority place a written account of each progress-briefing session in the CAF personnel record, if the member is not a member of his unit.  If the School CO placed the member on a remedial and is unable to oversee the period then a transfer of responsibility needs to take place through a CO to CO conversation.  There must be clear responsibility for monitoring and consequential action.
3. I do not think you can unilaterally just make it disappear as, "It is important that the CAF personnel record accurately reflect a complete history of the CAF member's service, conduct and performance."
4. If you as the supervisor feel the remedial measure is inappropriate then I would encourage the member to submit a redress, "CAF members who believe they have been aggrieved by any decision, act or omission under this DAOD may submit a grievance in accordance with QR&O Chapter 7, Grievances".