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DUI/impaired driving in CF (merged)

brihard

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SCE86 said:
Edited on request of OP for PERSEC reasons.

xxxmg% is a high blow. That’s quite a few drinks.

Under our laws as they stand, on criminal conviction you’ll face a minimum fine of $1500 plus victim surcharge- probably a bit shy of $2000 all in. You’ll get a one year driving prohibition. This assumes no priors.

Your province may have an ignition interlock program open to people who plead guilty early. If that is your intent I suggest contacting a lawyer and figure out your options ASAP, as often you need to move quick to access those.

You screwed up, badly. The good news is you didn’t hurt or kill anyone, so there’s that. You will not make your situation worse than it already is by taking ownership, and showing accountability for your choices. If that’s your intent, talk to your chain and make it clear to them. They will be more inclined to go to bat for you if you show that just maybe you have the strength of character to redeem yourself in time.
 

JesseWZ

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SCE86 said:
Edited on request of OP for PERSEC reasons.

If you are expecting to graduate (and presumably that comes with a posting) within the next couple of months, you should be aware that first court date is likely only a First Appearance. Even if you intend to plead guilty, there will likely be other court dates further down the road before the matter is settled. If your graduation comes with a posting, you may be required to travel back in order to attend court several times. It would be in your interest to keep your chain apprised of those dates as you learn them.
 

JesseWZ

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Folks,

Pre-emptive comment here:

The OP has come here and self disclosed something that paints them in an unfavourable light in order to seek guidance with the "what now".

This thread is going to remain a place only to answer the questions asked by the OP - not to judge the OP on their decisions, motivations, rationale, character, etc.

Anyone responsible for the administrative and disciplinary side of this has been made aware and is in a much better position than us to pass judgement.

JesseWZ
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brihard

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JesseWZ said:
If you are expecting to graduate (and presumably that comes with a posting) within the next couple of months, you should be aware that first court date is likely only a First Appearance. Even if you intend to plead guilty, there will likely be other court dates further down the road before the matter is settled. If your graduation comes with a posting, you may be required to travel back in order to attend court several times. It would be in your interest to keep your chain apprised of those dates as you learn them.

Though rare to see, you can plead guilty at a first appearance. I had one a couple months back who did exactly that.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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SCE86 said:
I’m an OCdt about to graduate university next month and was about to get my commission. I got a DUI yesterday. I do have an IC from last year regarding a separate domestic incident with my husband. I’m 32 and have never been in trouble until this last year. Just wondering if anyone has any idea what is likely to happen? Will I be kicked out? Will it be C&P? An RW?

Thanks

Step 1:  Retain a lawyer

Step 2:  Stop talking about the incident on here.  You haven't been convicted of an offence, you haven't even had a trial. 

Step 3:  Talk to the Chain of Command but don't tell them anything related to the case.  They don't need to know anything more about it than what the police report says.  It's pointless anyways as their hands are tied by DMCA Policy.

The policy is an Automatic C&P for six months.  Regardless of the outcome of the court case, you will be put on C&P.
The police arresting you for impaired driving is enough to get that ball rolling  You are not supposed to be posted on C&P and you are not supposed to do career courses.

If you follow the conditions of the C&P, at the end of the six months you should be good to go. 

My question for you though:  How are you feeling?  IC for a domestic dispute and now this, you are in tough and I hope you are doing ok? 
 

SentryMAn

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One thing I don't think I read in here is that you may also face being charged within the Military via Summary Trial or Court Marshal.  You may be and likely WILL be limited on  career courses, being promoted, Posting etc until your C+P etc  is completed.

Have you thought about seeking help regarding alcohol consumption, counselling, AA, etc?  They will go a LOOOOONG way when it comes time for the punishments given if you seek it out yourself rather then wait for the COC to direct you to medical services.

 

Haggis

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SentryMAn said:
One thing I don't think I read in here is that you may also face being charged within the Military via Summary Trial or Court Marshal.

The OP was charged by the MP for impaired driving under the Criminal Code.  Why, in your estimation, would she also face an NDA charge for the same offence?
 

medicineman

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SentryMAn said:
One thing I don't think I read in here is that you may also face being charged within the Military via Summary Trial or Court Marshal.  You may be and likely WILL be limited on  career courses, being promoted, Posting etc until your C+P etc  is completed.

Have you thought about seeking help regarding alcohol consumption, counselling, AA, etc?  They will go a LOOOOONG way when it comes time for the punishments given if you seek it out yourself rather then wait for the COC to direct you to medical services.

More likely going to face Administrative Measures regarding Alcohol Misuse than Disciplinary Measures than a Court MARTIAL (not Marshal - completely different word) or ST if they're already being charged under the Criminal Code - this should/will trigger a C&P with an AR...if they're in a position that's safety sensitive and or requires legal ability to drive, more likely that will happen at the highest level of Admin Measures permitted.

MM
 

JesseWZ

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SentryMAn said:
One thing I don't think I read in here is that you may also face being charged within the Military via Summary Trial or Court Marshal.  You may be and likely WILL be limited on  career courses, being promoted, Posting etc until your C+P etc  is completed.

There is a principal in Canadian law and enshrined in our Charter known as "Double Jeopardy". Essentially what it boils down to is you cannot be tried twice for the same conduct/offences. As impaired driving charges are typically heard in the criminal justice system, a Summary Trial or Court Martial for the same instance of impaired driving should not (and legally cannot) occur.

There are some minority occasions where someone could face an impaired driving charge AND Code of Service Discipline charges however the CSD charges would need to stem from separate conduct post and during arrest - *not* from the impaired driving.

In one example, an impaired driver was arrested and charged by the civilian constabulary, following the arrest the member behaved disgracefully towards the arresting officer, breath tech and jail supervisor. The MP's were called and the member faced impaired driving charges *and* charges of drunkenness and conduct prejudice laid by their unit after receiving a report of the members behaviour while in custody.

Charterpedia has a good summary of "Double Jeopardy" Here.
 

SentryMAn

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Sorry about my post, I've been up far too long and hadn't read where this is from 2013(OP).  I was speaking more so regarding charges for conduct rather then an ST/CM for the actual DUI, which will be settled in a civilian court room.  I understand Double jeopardy(even watched the movie) and how it is applied and depending on the members COC can be avoided depending on the nature of the situation.....but that would be for an UDI to determine. 

Would it be worth it?  likely not, the member is already facing financial issues and now will be paying fines and increased insurance etc.

The AR would be what I would be most scared of in this situation as a barely in the military OCdt.

Again, SEEK help for alcohol, seek counselling for your marital problems, document these things, they WILL help you.







 

Navy_Pete

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JesseWZ said:
There is a principal in Canadian law and enshrined in our Charter known as "Double Jeopardy". Essentially what it boils down to is you cannot be tried twice for the same conduct/offences. As impaired driving charges are typically heard in the criminal justice system, a Summary Trial or Court Martial for the same instance of impaired driving should not (and legally cannot) occur.

There are some minority occasions where someone could face an impaired driving charge AND Code of Service Discipline charges however the CSD charges would need to stem from separate conduct post and during arrest - *not* from the impaired driving.

In one example, an impaired driver was arrested and charged by the civilian constabulary, following the arrest the member behaved disgracefully towards the arresting officer, breath tech and jail supervisor. The MP's were called and the member faced impaired driving charges *and* charges of drunkenness and conduct prejudice laid by their unit after receiving a report of the members behaviour while in custody.

Charterpedia has a good summary of "Double Jeopardy" Here.

As an aside, C&P and AR are administrative measures and separate and independent from any criminal charges. They are not a punishment so 'double jeopardy' does not apply. Admin measures are meant to have a formal structure for the divisional system to ensure the member is getting the mentoring, extra training, help etc. required to deal with a specific issue, and the AR is intended to ensure the member is still employable by the CAF. Being released as a result of an AR is possible, and have read CMs where it was a mitigation considered for sentencing, but you can be placed on some kind of admin measure and still be charged for the same incident.

Aside from being on your record, it is also intended to hold the CoC accountable for their side of it (ie by providing extra guidance, time for training opportunities, etc) to correct the deficiency (although that part is debatable). The AR is also supposed to ensure that anything that misconduct that would lead to a release is done by a neutral third party and that both the CoC and member's viewpoints are considered.  It can be fairly painful, but for the problem children that can be the bane of a CoC's existence does ensure that someone not directly involved in it does make the decision, so a lot fairer than what you get in most companies.
 

JesseWZ

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SentryMAn said:
  I understand Double jeopardy(even watched the movie) and how it is applied and depending on the members COC can be avoided depending on the nature of the situation.....but that would be for an UDI to determine. 

How is a members chain of command going to "avoid" a right enshrined by s. 11(h) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? It's pretty clear. You cannot be charged twice for the same circumstances. There are no "workarounds" to add an extra dose of discipline on top of criminal charges.

s. 11(h) Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

11. Any person charged with an offence has the right ... (h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again


 

Kat Stevens

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Anyone who says C&P is not a punishment has clearly never been on C&P. It's living under the all seeing Eye of Mordor for six months, and then being viewed with a yellow eye for a considerable time after, depending on vindictiveness of individuals.
 

Remius

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Target Up said:
Anyone who says C&P is not a punishment has clearly never been on C&P. It's living under the all seeing Eye of Mordor for six months, and then being viewed with a yellow eye for a considerable time after, depending on vindictiveness of individuals.

Or depending on the nature of the deficiency.
 

Kat Stevens

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Remius said:
Or depending on the nature of the deficiency.

Why is that necessary? C&P is over, climb down out of their ass and let them get on with their lives. It's petty control freak Bullshit of Damocles.
 

Navy_Pete

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Target Up said:
Anyone who says C&P is not a punishment has clearly never been on C&P. It's living under the all seeing Eye of Mordor for six months, and then being viewed with a yellow eye for a considerable time after, depending on vindictiveness of individuals.

Even a RW will stay on your file for your entire career, and there is no pardon or similar.  There are definitely consequences, but in any case, has no bearing on any kind of 'double jeopardy' wrt criminal charges.

 

Kat Stevens

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That's not what I was referring to. Someone said C&P was not punishment. There is punishment and then there is punishment, but I think you knew that. Yes, an RW stays on your sheet because, well, it's R. Not me personally, but I've overheard a WO say to a Cpl words to the effect of "remember when you were on C&P a couple years back? Nudge nudge, wink wink." Of course that's way back before anyone decided we had rights.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Target Up said:
That's not what I was referring to. Someone said C&P was not punishment. There is punishment and then there is punishment, but I think you knew that. Yes, an RW stays on your sheet because, well, it's R. Not me personally, but I've overheard a WO say to a Cpl words to the effect of "remember when you were on C&P a couple years back? Nudge nudge, wink wink." Of course that's way back before anyone decided we had rights.

All remedial measures stay on the mbr's Pers File "forever" now...why shouldn't they?  If you are on C&P for something in 2017, and then mess up for the same thing again in 2020...not really the 'first time' is it?

RMs stay on file for a reason.  If you don't mess up...nothing is ever on your file. 

What other COA would you suggest to keep a history of conduct and/or performance deficiencies?
 

Navy_Pete

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Target Up said:
That's not what I was referring to. Someone said C&P was not punishment. There is punishment and then there is punishment, but I think you knew that. Yes, an RW stays on your sheet because, well, it's R. Not me personally, but I've overheard a WO say to a Cpl words to the effect of "remember when you were on C&P a couple years back? Nudge nudge, wink wink." Of course that's way back before anyone decided we had rights.

I was mentioning it to clarify that remedial measures are separate from any legal charges so will not count towards a double jeopardy.  Some lower deck lawyers tend to bring that up, but it's not accurate.  Don't feel like hijacking this thread over sidebars, so will leave it at that.
 

Franko

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Target Up said:
That's not what I was referring to. Someone said C&P was not punishment. There is punishment and then there is punishment, but I think you knew that. Yes, an RW stays on your sheet because, well, it's R. Not me personally, but I've overheard a WO say to a Cpl words to the effect of "remember when you were on C&P a couple years back? Nudge nudge, wink wink." Of course that's way back before anyone decided we had rights.

No need to say anything at all. The member screws up, someone checks their pers file and there it is - grounds for an Admin Review.

If there's nothing there, charges that would probably accompany the transgression along with the RM if required.

Regards
 
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