Drug use/drug testing in the CF (merged)

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Among a growing population, pot is seen as perfectly fine to use at anytime.

Among a growing population beheading journalists on video is fine anytime.  See what I did there?

 

[TCM621]

Among a growing population beheading journalists on video is fine anytime.  See what I did there?

Clever. Not relevant but clever.

 

[Franko]

Clever. Not relevant but clever.

Nor is your anecdote. It's illegal and will be for the foreseeable future within the CAF, regardless what you or others believe.

17 pages wasted bandwidth on a banned substance in the Forces.    :

 

[TCM621]

Nor is your anecdote. It's illegal and will be for the foreseeable future within the CAF, regardless what you or others believe.

17 pages wasted bandwidth on a banned substance in the Forces.    :

And you know this how? This is a discussion forum, where topics are discussed.  I really could give a shit if pot is made legal or not. And I (like many, in not most CF members) work in a dangerous environment everyday. If anyone was working high beside me, I would kick the living shit out of them for putting my life in danger.

However, it is a fact that Marijuana use is on the rise both in the population at whole and the CF in particular (legal or not). Public opinion is swaying towards legalization and this will affect the CF. the smart move is to have a plan in place to deal with issues that may arise. The point of the conversation is to discuss what that plan may be. And comparing pot use to beheading is intellectually dishonest at best and not useful to the coversation except as a joke.

 

[JesseWZ]

And I (like many, in not most CF members) work in a dangerous environment everyday. If anyone was working high beside me, I would kick the living crap out of them for putting my life in danger.

So you advocate assaulting another member over their drug use? What about assaulting a subordinate for drug use? Does that sound ok? How about just reporting the use to the proper authorities and let the system sort the person out. This isn't gangland Chicago...

 

[Franko]

And you know this how? This is a discussion forum, where topics are discussed.  I really could give a shit if pot is made legal or not. And I (like many, in not most CF members) work in a dangerous environment everyday. If anyone was working high beside me, I would kick the living shit out of them for putting my life in danger.

However, it is a fact that Marijuana use is on the rise both in the population at whole and the CF in particular (legal or not). Public opinion is swaying towards legalization and this will affect the CF. the smart move is to have a plan in place to deal with issues that may arise. The point of the conversation is to discuss what that plan may be. And comparing pot use to beheading is intellectually dishonest at best and not useful to the coversation except as a joke.

Really? Seems the CF already has the issue well in hand for quite some time and has already laid down the law. If it's on the rise as you say in the CAF, there will be a corresponding rise in C&P along with releases. I've been in for 26 years and I haven't seen a correlation that backs up your statement.

Seeing that you're a 2Lt you should be well aware of the QR&Os along with the CANFORGENS and other directives WRT pot. If not, best get in the books pronto before you're a AO for a ST.

The issue is moot at best, regardless of what the public has to say. Case in point, the Dutch military. Legal in their society, illegal in their military.

As for you, apparently an Officer, saying that you'll "kick the living shit" out of someone that's high makes me wonder if you really are.

 

[Journeyman]

Maybe he's having difficulties with "increased short term memory loss, decreased ability to form new memories, and increased risk taking,"  you know..... "in addition to other detriments"    ;D

 

[Eye In The Sky]

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-health-services-wellness-addiction/other-drug-use.page

Cannabis, The most widely used illegal drug

Get the facts!
•Cannabis is classified under two drug categories: Depressants and Hallucinogens.
•Cannabis is used in three forms. It is used as marijuana (the dried leaf of the plant), hashish and hash oil (both from the plant resin).
•Marijuana and hashish are usually smoked, while hash oil is usually added to marijuana or tobacco cigarettes.
•The chemical ingredient in cannabis that produces the high is called THC (delta-9-tetrahydro-cannabinol). New growing methods have been developed in recent years and the percentage of THC found in cannabis has increased making it even stronger.

Short terms effects:
•Feeling relaxed and free. People sometimes experience a heightened sense of smell and vision. Normally these effects last two to four hours.
•Cannabis makes users clumsier and significantly slows their reaction times therefore adversely affecting operational readiness and safety. Driving and operating machinery while stoned is not safe, especially if cannabis is combined with other drugs, including alcohol.
•When cannabis enters the brain the short-term effects include memory problems, distorted perception, difficulty thinking, impaired concentration, loss of coordination and interference with normal muscle functioning.
•While high on cannabis, many people will lose some of their ability to learn and will forget things and have trouble concentrating.
•Some users feel severe anxiety and high doses can cause panic attacks, fearful, suspicious feelings (paranoia) and temporary psychosis.
•These effects can persist long after the initial high has worn off. In fact, they may last 24 hours or more.


Long-term effects:
•Cannabis smoke contains cancer-producing chemicals that damage the lungs and can lead to chronic coughing, lung infections and cancer of the lungs, neck and head.
•Regular/heavy use of cannabis is associated with decreased manual dexterity and a decreased ability to incorporate feedback to correct incorrect responses. For example, when playing a game, cannabis users will have greater difficulty changing their strategy based on what their opponents are doing.
•Many long-term cannabis users develop problems with short-term memory, concentration and abstract thinking.

Cannabis Use in the military
•The Canadian Forces has a ZERO TOLERANCE policy regarding the use of cannabis and other illegal drugs.

 

[TCM621]

Maybe he's having difficulties with "increased short term memory loss, decreased ability to form new memories, and increased risk taking,"  you know..... "in addition to other detriments"    ;D

I stopped smoking pot in Jr.  High. Personally I can't stand the shit.

Do I advocate assault? No. Would I do it? Probably and would take the charge for it. I deal with explosives, it is not ok to do that high. That is my feeling on the issue, how I would feel if someone had such little disregard for my life that he would be high at work.

On the other hand,  if someone wants to smoke pot on a Friday night, they are grown adults and it's not my place to say anything or judge them.

Nerf herder, I am well aware of the rules and regs wrt drug use. I am also aware of an increase in drug use in the CF as in the general population. As recently as last spring, 17 roaches were found outside the CFSATE barracks in Borden.  That illustrates how young people view pot use, even though they know it is illegal they think nothing of throwing roaches on the ground near where they live. In 08, CFFS esquimalt had 17% of the school pissed hot during a surprise drug test with pot being one of the drugs of choice. More teens smoke pot now than smoke cigarettes. In BC, it is common to see people smoking joints as they walk down the street.

This attitude is being introduced into the CF and will only increase if pot is legal.

 

[mba2011]

This attitude is being introduced into the CF and will only increase if pot is legal.

Unfortunately, regardless of whether the attitude is changing in Canadian society, it is still illegal, both in the CAF and society.

 

[Franko]

On the other hand,  if someone wants to smoke pot on a Friday night, they are grown adults and it's not my place to say anything or judge them.

Actually, it is your place to judge them and act accordingly if you know of cases. If there's ever an investigation and if someone ever finds out you knew about it, I'd hate to be in your shoes.

Through a thorough DI, it will come out in the investigation. It always does. Last one I did WRT drugs was quite an eye opener.

Nerf herder, I am well aware of the rules and regs wrt drug use.

Apparently not, see your above statement.

I am also aware of an increase in drug use in the CF as in the general population. As recently as last spring, 17 roaches were found outside the CFSATE barracks in Borden.  That illustrates how young people view pot use, even though they know it is illegal they think nothing of throwing roaches on the ground near where they live.

So what was done about it? Someone actually do their duty and let the powers that are on that base know? Anyone at all? Did you do the right thing and report it?

Last time I heard even a rumour of drugs on base in Pet, the dogs were called in and 7 persons were sorted out. Same in Gagetown.

In 08, CFFS esquimalt had 17% of the school pissed hot during a surprise drug test with pot being one of the drugs of choice.

Awesome. 17% of the school has a C&P on their conduct sheet. Wait until the next piss test. Buh bye.

This attitude is being introduced into the CF and will only increase if pot is legal.

And it's your job to stop it, full stop. Seems you're making all kinds of excuses for the behaviour when you know full well it's illegal.

I honestly don't care what the civilian population attitude is, we have standards and laws. It's our job to uphold them, regardless of what some armchair pothead general thinks is right.

Regards

 

[Brasidas]

No, there's not. Long term marijuana use is associated with increased short term memory loss, decreased ability to form new memories, and increased risk taking, in addition to other detriments. The time of day consumption occurs has nothing to do with the performance degradation. If you want I can post the studies so that you can read them yourself.

Not the type of person I want driving my kids, let alone my AFV or anything else for that mater.

Sure, post them.

The majority of users that I work with (particularly ones that I socialize with) are in their 30s, have things mostly together, and are generally responsible. They are never impaired outside of safe circumstances.

Impairment from long-term exposure, beyond short-term memory, I have not observed. I'll read what you post.

CF smokers that I've worked with have generally been younger and less responsible, but that's been a relatively small sample. Who's dumb enough to bring pot on course? Somebody pretty reckless. The only one I've seen caught decided to bring enough to last all PLQ, and found his vehicle searched by MPs due to unrelated stupidity.

By and large, I don't have a problem with legalization. Long-term exposure effects, if they have an impact on operational effectiveness, can and should keep it restricted from the CF. I have no qualms, absent substantial research results, having friends or family members be occasional pot users, any more than I would if they drank. That's different from my relief operator handling a 9-liner.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I stopped smoking pot in Jr.  High. Personally I can't stand the shit.

Do I advocate assault? No. Would I do it? Probably and would take the charge for it. I deal with explosives, it is not ok to do that high. That is my feeling on the issue, how I would feel if someone had such little disregard for my life that he would be high at work.

On the other hand,  if someone wants to smoke pot on a Friday night, they are grown adults and it's not my place to say anything or judge them.

Nerf herder, I am well aware of the rules and regs wrt drug use. I am also aware of an increase in drug use in the CF as in the general population. As recently as last spring, 17 roaches were found outside the CFSATE barracks in Borden.  That illustrates how young people view pot use, even though they know it is illegal they think nothing of throwing roaches on the ground near where they live. In 08, CFFS esquimalt had 17% of the school pissed hot during a surprise drug test with pot being one of the drugs of choice. More teens smoke pot now than smoke cigarettes. In BC, it is common to see people smoking joints as they walk down the street.

This attitude is being introduced into the CF and will only increase if pot is legal.

So you quit smoking pot, after how long? Now, you 'hate the shit'. That begs the question, as a previous pothead, what converted you? Also, if you now 'hate the shit', what aspect of it now turns you off that you would tolerate it in others around you that you depend your life on? Do you not think, that if the toils and pressures of combat were on them and they had weed available they wouldn't be using it whenever they could? Does the enemy only attack at dawn, after you've had your THC sleep and are now ready for a coffee and combat?

I think that you should forget championing your fellow potheads, quit trying to come across as a tough guy, oblivious to the consequences of physically abusing a subordinate and re-read your Commissioning Scroll.

That's just my :2c: after years of getting like minded Officers fired. There is no lower calling for a human being, than to physically or mentally abuse a subordinate. Count yourself lucky that I'm now retired and we never crossed paths.

 

[ModlrMike]

Sure, post them.

Pharmacology and effects of cannabis: a brief review Read the section about half way through that talks about driving and piloting skills. There is a direct application to many military tasks.

Psychiatric effects of cannabis† I'm particularly struck by these conclusions:

Cannabis use may lead to a chronic psychosis, which persists after abstinence.

Long-term cannabis use may lead to an organic psychosis which only partially remits after abstinence, leaving a residual deficit state, sometimes called an amotivational syndrome, which is thought to be analogous to the chronic organic brain syndrome seen after prolonged misuse of alcohol.

Cannabis use may be a risk-factor for serious mental illness such as schizophrenia.

Cognitive consequences of cannabis use: comparison with abuse of stimulants and heroin with regard to attention, memory and executive functions.

Cannabis induces loss of internal control and cognitive impairment, especially of attention and memory, for the duration of intoxication. Heavy cannabis use is associated with reduced function of the attentional/executive system, as exhibited by decreased mental flexibility, increased perserveration, and reduced learning, to shift and/or sustain attention.

That's just three of many, I'm sure you can do further research on your own. I didn't even look at the respiratory consequences.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Pharmacology and effects of cannabis: a brief review Read the section about half way through that talks about driving and piloting skills. There is a direct application to many military tasks.

Psychiatric effects of cannabis† I'm particularly struck by these conclusions:
Cognitive consequences of cannabis use: comparison with abuse of stimulants and heroin with regard to attention, memory and executive functions.

That's just three of many, I'm sure you can do further research on your own. I didn't even look at the respiratory consequences.

Thanks for that. We, all of us, ordinary citizens and soldiers (who are also citizens) alike need to understand what is being proposed by some 'leaders'.

(I'm inclined, at this moment, to see marijuana as being something like alcohol: it is a dangerous substance but one which is in high demand. I don't exactly recall ~ even I'm not that old! ~ but I understand the serious ill-effects of the prohibition movement in the USA in the 1920s and '30s and I suspect that some of those social costs are being paid here because of our marijuana laws. In other words, I'm willing to consider "decriminalizing" personal marijuana use if, and it's a Big IF, that will help deny profits to criminals. I am completely unsure about how "decriminalization" might be made to work and I am unwilling to vote "Yes," to it without a detailed plan for legal control and sales to adults.)

My sense remains as I said earlier: treat simple possession the way we (used to) treat alcohol abuse ~ counselling and clinics first, and disciplinary action as necessary; treat trafficing and posession of large quantities swiftly and harshly, in an exemplary manner: long stays in cells and release - officers and NCMs alike.

 

[TCM621]

So you quit smoking pot, after how long? Now, you 'hate the crap'. That begs the question, as a previous pothead, what converted you? Also, if you now 'hate the crap', what aspect of it now turns you off that you would tolerate it in others around you that you depend your life on? Do you not think, that if the toils and pressures of combat were on them and they had weed available they wouldn't be using it whenever they could? Does the enemy only attack at dawn, after you've had your THC sleep and are now ready for a coffee and combat?

I think that you should forget championing your fellow potheads, quit trying to come across as a tough guy, oblivious to the consequences of physically abusing a subordinate and re-read your Commissioning Scroll.

That's just my :2c: after years of getting like minded Officers fired. There is no lower calling for a human being, than to physically or mentally abuse a subordinate. Count yourself lucky that I'm now retired and we never crossed paths.

I don't know where you get this idea I am championing pot use. It is the exact opposite.  I am anti pot but I fundamentally believe that grown adults can make their own choices as to what they put in their bodies. The military is different, we don't get that choice because of the job we do. Increased drug use in the military is a fact, particularly pot and legalization will affect that. The military needs to prepare itself.

Yes I smoked pot in Jr high 20 years ago. You know what changed? I grew up. The amount of adults who smoke pot like teenagers is sad in my opinion but, again, they are adults and free to make their own choices. Also, I was even a "pothead" 20 years ago. If you think someone who smoked pot as a teenager is a "fellow pothead" to people who smoke regularly now, you're an idiot.

You also have jumped on this idea that I will strike a subordinate.  Never have, never will but I have been in fights, and maybe again one day. A peer who threatens my life by working high, is a good reason in my book.

Oh, and those 17% who pissed hot got off Scott free because the school was unable to do anything, according to those rules and regs we spoke of.

I'm done arguing with people over shit they think they know about me. Bottom line. Pot use is only going to increase and the military needs a solid plan to deal with the fall out of legalization. Current policy isn't sufficient.

 

[The_Falcon]

I don't know where you get this idea I am championing pot use. It is the exact opposite.  I am anti pot but I fundamentally believe that grown adults can make their own choices as to what they put in their bodies. The military is different, we don't get that choice because of the job we do. Increased drug use in the military is a fact, particularly pot and legalization will affect that. The military needs to prepare itself.

And the first step, is if you see something you SAY something.  If you aren't saying something, you are complicit, and might as well be championing it.

You also have jumped on this idea that I will strike a subordinate.  Never have, never will but I have been in fights, and maybe again one day. A peer who threatens my life by working high, is a good reason in my book.

No one has jumped on anything, or made assumptions, because YOU KEEP SAYING YOU WILL DO IT, in fact your sentence contradicts itself.  Never is an absolute, so if you are going to say you would never strike a subordinate or peer, it means precisely that NEVER.  However YOU keep inserting a reason why you would, thus negating the NEVER.

I'm done arguing with people over crap they think they know about me. Bottom line. Pot use is only going to increase and the military needs a solid plan to deal with the fall out of legalization. Current policy isn't sufficient.

The military does not need a solid plan and the current policies are sufficient, the military already regulates (and provides punishment for those regulations) many aspects of soldiers lives, that would not be regulated/punished in the civilian world.  What NEEDS to happen is for people to actually ENFORCE those policies and regulations on a more regular and consistent basis.

 

[medicineman]

That's just three of many, I'm sure you can do further research on your own. I didn't even look at the respiratory consequences.

I seem to recall from university Pharm and Tox a stat of a 50% increased risk of lung cancer in regular users compared to cigarette smokers...with usual inherent risk of COPD, asthma, upper and lower respiratory tract infections, etc.

MM

 

[ModlrMike]

I seem to recall from university Pharm and Tox a stat of a 50% increased risk of lung cancer in regular users compared to cigarette smokers...with usual inherent risk of COPD, asthma, upper and lower respiratory tract infections, etc.

MM

That's in keeping with my recollection. I also seem to recall that MJ smoke deposits 80% more tar in the lungs than tobacco, probably because of the unfiltered nature of the smoke.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

That's in keeping with my recollection. I also seem to recall that MJ smoke deposits 80% more tar in the lungs than tobacco, probably because of the unfiltered nature of the smoke.

Yea, but surely that is countered by all the cancer it cures,....no??
:sarcasm:  [just in case]