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Dress rules established for transsexuals in military

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vonGarvin

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Michael O'Leary said:
Solution: unisex uniforms; remove gender descriptions for uniforms and let people wear what they choose as long as any one uniform conforms to the Dress regulations.
Of course, the solution is highland dress ;D

 

GAP

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Technoviking said:
Of course, the solution is highland dress ;D

Oh......you were just concerned about access...... ;D

Actually, having set the dress standard to "whatever", irrespective of the gender argument, was probably necessary. You gottem', they're here, now dress appropriately....my :2c:
 

dapaterson

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Technoviking said:
If you're a dude and you want to be a lumberjack of Monty Python fame, then go be a lumberjack.

No can do.


We got rid of the pioneers.
 

chrisf

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Technoviking said:
how, exactly?  We are so worried as a CF to look the part of being a model of diversity, when all one has to do is look at our Roll of Honour and see the reality.  We go for the lowest common denominator in our recruiting, when instead we should be sending messages along the line of "99.9% need not apply".  We are an exclusive club, certainly not homogenous, but neither are we a social model.  When the focus is on crap like this, instead of breeding a mentality of the "Virtuous Warrior", one who can withstand adversity and is willing to lie down one's life for one's country, instead of whinging and whining about our so-called "suppressed human rights", one can only look for the shadows. 

Christ, we have fatties going on operations, when they should be told to "ship up or ship out".

Yes, and I agree with you 100%, now what does any of that have to do with transgendered soldiers? There's no standards being lowered, nothing being changed.

All this order does is take a grey area, and make it black and white, so the occasional supervisor who's too afraid to deal with an issue in the simplest way possible, and doesn't have to be too afraid of the big "H" (Harrasment) to deal with a problem. It was, or at least should have been, a black and white issue before, however, there was no policy on it. Now there is.
 

mover1

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Technoviking said:
Now, as to the "really important" stuff, which standard of the CF Expres Test would he/she/it have to pass?

They have to pass the test of the Gender they choose to live by.
 

vonGarvin

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a Sig Op said:
Yes, which is exactly what the order says.
It also mentions "transvestites", THAT is the part that gets my knickers in a knot*






*Now that it's out, I can now freely admit I wear women's thongs.  ;)
a Sig Op said:
Yes, and I agree with you 100%, now what does any of that have to do with transgendered soldiers? There's no standards being lowered, nothing being changed.

All this order does is take a grey area, and make it black and white, so the occasional supervisor who's too afraid to deal with an issue in the simplest way possible, and doesn't have to be too afraid of the big "H" (Harrasment) to deal with a problem. It was, or at least should have been, a black and white issue before, however, there was no policy on it. Now there is.

See above. It's the transvestites.  If soldier "A" (born male) enrols as male, and then gets a sex change operation, and then legally goes female, then we're cool.
mover1 said:
They have to pass the test of the Gender they choose to live by.
Unfair, and I'll leave it at that.
 

Michael OLeary

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Technoviking said:
It also mentions "transvestites", THAT is the part that gets my knickers in a knot*

Does anyone have a copy of the text of the actual regulation? Or are we just going by what the National Post article says? Because that article does specify:

Soldiers, sailors and air force personnel who change their sex or sexual identity have a right to privacy and respect around that decision, but must conform to the dress code of their “target” gender, says the supplementary chapter of a military administration manual.

That seems more specific than just wanting to wear clothes of the other gender for thrills (the commonly used definition for "transvestite").

 

ballz

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I will probably get some flak for this but I can't help for some reason, and I can't even put it into words to justify why I feel like this, but I jsut can't shake feeling this is awfully hypocritical of an organization that won't let males pierce their ear(s).... (safety reasons aside, obviously you shouldn't be wearing piercings during actual operations and stuff)

I dunno, maybe I should be listening instead of talking again, but that's my non-refundable, non-transferrable (that's right, the Air Canada kind of) 2 cents.
 

Sapplicant

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Quick question;

Does this have anything to do with the part of the application form where they very clearly state that examination of the genitals will not be performed?

As an aside, who here can honestly tell me that they'd be deeply troubled to serve alongside someone like this:

mash-klinger.jpg
 

lethalLemon

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Sapplicant said:
Quick question;

Does this have anything to do with the part of the application form where they very clearly state that examination of the genitals will not be performed?

As an aside, who here can honestly tell me that they'd be deeply troubled to serve alongside someone like this:

mash-klinger.jpg

If he/she can do the job; it wouldn't matter to me. Although I'd just be concerned about what goes on in the quarters; and depending on which gender they claim to - what quarters they would stay in (regardless of present or non-present genitalia)? and how the members of whichever gender would feel with them present in their quarters doing the routine (****, shower, shave etc.)? Now, I'm sure that it'd be a little awkward at first (as I'm sure it was when GLBs first came into the CF) but would eventually come to terms and carry on as if nothing even changed.

What can I say? I'm an optimist. (Sort of  >:D )
 

Michael OLeary

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Sapplicant said:
Quick question;

Does this have anything to do with the part of the application form where they very clearly state that examination of the genitals will not be performed?

As an aside, who here can honestly tell me that they'd be deeply troubled to serve alongside someone like this:

mash-klinger.jpg

Personally I would, I have always been "deeply troubled" by such large noses.

Are you suggesting that someone requesting uniforms and gender re-assignment under this new regulation would be allowed to dress in the manner depicted by the image you chose in the workplace, instead of in a military uniform?

 

vonGarvin

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Michael O'Leary said:
Personally I would, I have always been "deeply troubled" by such large noses.
Them's fightin' words! ;D
Michael O'Leary said:
Are you suggesting that someone requesting uniforms and gender re-assignment under this new regulation would be allowed to dress in the manner depicted by the image you chose in the workplace, instead of in a military uniform?
I don't know what he's suggesting, but say it's in the mess after hours?  (Though it would be hard to tell from a UK Army mess on some nights, I imagine) ;D
 

Michael OLeary

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lethalLemon said:
If he/she can do the job; it wouldn't matter to me. Although I'd just be concerned about what goes on in the quarters; and depending on which gender they claim to - what quarters they would stay in (regardless of present or non-present genitalia)? and how the members of whichever gender would feel with them present in their quarters doing the routine (****, shower, shave etc.)? Now, I'm sure that it'd be a little awkward at first (as I'm sure it was when GLBs first came into the CF) but would eventually come to terms and carry on as if nothing even changed.

What goes on the quarters now?  What special arrangements do you create and enforce (or expect to find) that separate, protect or otherwise isolate those of different sexuality (aside from gender alone)?

Coed barracks work - usually because we expect the soldiers, sailors and airmen [airpeople?}, both officer and NCM, to behave like adults. The fact that some fail to achieve that expectation seldom has anything to do with someone else's choice of gender or sexuality.
 

MMSS

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Sapplicant said:
Quick question;

Does this have anything to do with the part of the application form where they very clearly state that examination of the genitals will not be performed?

As an aside, who here can honestly tell me that they'd be deeply troubled to serve alongside someone like this:

mash-klinger.jpg

I'd be thrilled if Jameel Farha was in my unit.
 
J

jollyjacktar

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Shit, I don't care what the hell you wear, who you wear it with or for, for that matter.  What I do care about is that you are willing and able to do your job and I know that you have your arcs covered.  I have seen guys who wear women's panties (no bras), it made me do a double take at first.  But I got over it and it ceased to be an issue in time.  Williams.... now that is different he was being a sick fuck.  Lester the Molester was just weird.
 

Jarnhamar

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LOL

I love the CF.  I'm going to put my memo in for a sex change then hang around the washrooms and showers of my target gender.

This rule (great timing by the way!) seems like a non-issue and common sense.  Wanna be a girl then you dress like one basically. It'd be interesting to see a very masculine man dressing in a dress both on duty(CFs) and off.  That picture splashed across the news would be priceless.

Side note, one quick and easy answer is always "If they can do the job then their good to go".  Sure, but a part of doing the job is being a team player and a certain level of assimilation for lack of a better word. If you constantly stand out and refuse play well with others (and we've all seen it in cases of special needs soldiers) you become an administrative burden.

I can do the job easily. If I start my process tomorrow how many females here would be comfortable with me showering next to them in my full glory?  When do I stop showering with men and start with women? Or do I get special showers for my special needs. Once I'm "fully a woman" how comfortable will you women be with me showering beside you now?  What happens when you get told to STFU and do it because I'm now a woman and to treat me otherwise is harassment? I supposed the rule with hermaphrodites is again whatever gender they consider themselves.

I guess that's getting off topic.

Bottom line, NO one is safe from dress regs  ;D

I'm interested to see who and what is next though.
 

Michael OLeary

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Grimaldus said:
Side note, one quick and easy answer is always "If they can do the job then their good to go".  Sure, but a part of doing the job is being a team player and a certain level of assimilation for lack of a better word. If you constantly stand out and refuse play well with others (and we've all seen it in cases of special needs soldiers) you become an administrative burden.

Yeah, I've seen those guys that weren't good "team players" - they got things like special postings to units where the hockey team was considered more prestigious, special course run for them because the regular in-unit course schedules conflicted with play-off schedules, excused field training because of games, protected on merit lists because they were contributing "so much" (just not while in uniform).  You're right, everyone needs to be the same and no-one should ever get any special different treatment.

 
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