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Dress and Deportment

Haggis

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Jarnhamar said:
It's halftical.

LOL... that's a term I haven't heard in quite a while.

From reading this thread and the comments on social media, I'm sure this will be page six news by Friday except in the halls of 4 Div HQ and the MND's office.  It's going to stick around there until posting season for sure.
 

ballz

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Pusser said:
*Yes, "gaggling."  It looks undisciplined and you can't even argue that they were in a "patrol" formation.  A patrol formation is still a disciplined formation and all of these soldiers are too close together to be an effective patrol - one grenade and they're done.

This is what I love about being "semi-tactical" or, as I like it put, half-pregnant. It causes ridiculous circular arguments like the effective or non-effective dispersion of personnel to protect them from grenades...while on parade in downtown Toronto. "But they are on parade, so they should be marching in step." "But they are tactical, so they should be dispersed in a patrol formation." "But they are on parades, so they should spit shine their boots." "But they are tactical, so their boots are brown suede." "But they are on parade, so they need to yell loud and clear drill orders." "But they are tactical, so they should use hand signals."

I LOVE IT. Let's just stop it all with the fact that they are parading, and should therefore follow parade norms / standards / etc.

E.R. Campbell said:
By the time you get to be a LCol in the reserve Army and, worse yet, a BGen in the regular Arny (Comd 4 Cdn Div) you are supposed to be fully aware of (not just interested in) the nature of the "India-Sikh nonsense" and its implications for Canadian foreign policy ... anyone who is not aware of that should not be even a lieutenant in the Canadian Army, much less a lieutenant colonel.

This would be an interesting tangent for a thread... that seems like a lofty expectation for all Lts. I'll bet most LCols are not half-aware, let alone fully aware, of India-Sikh stuff.

E.R. Campbell said:
Of course it's "a bad judgement call," bad enough that the CO should be relieved, tomorrow, and BGen Paul (who cannot be fired for political/PR/ethnocultural reasons ~ he's indigenous, likely the most senior serving indigenous member) should be packing his bags for a long, Long, LONG tour in Brussels or Mons, à la then Col, later BGen Serge Labbé after the Somalia affair.

My guess is the CO doesn't even get put on IC, and definitely nothing happens to the Bde Comd. I suspect the 4 Div Comd, or his staff, had no clue this was happening although I don't know how much that would have changed anything.

I think the other good tangent here is the appropriateness of CAF participating in various parades, particularly as the CAF clearly wants to be more diverse / inclusive and so can cross into political issues much easier. You seem mostly miffed about this from a foreign policy perspective, which I think most people were not even aware of. Most people, I think, are caught off guard by the appropriateness of conducting a parade while being half-preggo. What do you think your reaction would be if they were just in DEUs and didn't come across as a bag of hammers, given your larger concern of the foreign policy repercussions.


 

Haggis

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ballz said:
My guess is the CO doesn't even get put on IC, and definitely nothing happens to the Bde Comd. I suspect the 4 Div Comd, or his staff, had no clue this was happening although I don't know how much that would have changed anything.

I suspect that this may be simply a case of a young officer taking the "CO's intent" and misguidedly running with it.

I also know, having been a unit Ops O for three years prior to retiring, that Bde HQ pays little attention to a lot of stuff due to a tremendous number of competing priorities.  Usually something "odd" would come to the G3's attention through the G4 net when units asked for weird stuff on their TSRs.  Our Bde G3 was understaffed to a ridiculous point whereby they were almost totally reactive and outside the OODA loop.  I'm surprised more crap didn't happen and I credit the units Ops Staffs for ensure the young "good idea fairies" were kept in a cage. [/quote]
 

ballz

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Haggis said:
I suspect that this may be simply a case of a young officer taking the "CO's intent" and misguidedly running with it.

I doubt it... the Global and CBC stuff I've read have said it was the Commanding Officer. Plus they are PRes so it would be a Commanding Officer decision to pay these guys, etc... and the request, in one way or another, would have went through the CO / Ops staff. An Lt or Capt doesn't have the authority/autonomy to wipe their own arse in the CAF, let alone take their guys downtown in FFO to participate in a huge event all on their own initiative and with their own internal resources. I'm guessing the CO had full awareness of what was happening, but lacked the critical thinking ability to decipher that this may be a bad idea given he probably had "inclusivity, diversity, etc" on the mind and thought that was in line with the CAF's intent.

Haggis said:
I also know, having been a unit Ops O for three years prior to retiring, that Bde HQ pays little attention to a lot of stuff due to a tremendous number of competing priorities.  Usually something "odd" would come to the G3's attention through the G4 net when units asked for weird stuff on their TSRs.  Our Bde G3 was understaffed to a ridiculous point whereby they were almost totally reactive and outside the OODA loop.  I'm surprised more crap didn't happen and I credit the units Ops Staffs for ensure the young "good idea fairies" were kept in a cage. 

That's right and sounds similar with my experience. This parade occurring was probably a bullet point on the Unit's quad-slide during a CUB at the CBG level at most, with very little attention paid to it. And like I said, I doubt it even made the slides at Div.
 

garb811

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But what's a poor PRes CO to think about all that Dress Manual and Drill and Ceremonial stuff when you see a guard mounted for the CDS in flight suits, CADPAT and NCD with accoutrements?

 

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Haggis

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ballz said:
I doubt it... the Global and CBC stuff I've read have said it was the Commanding Officer. Plus they are PRes so it would be a Commanding Officer decision to pay these guys, etc... and the request, in one way or another, would have went through the CO / Ops staff.
I think you missed my point.  No doubt the CO was aware and authorized participation, tasking it down through his C of C.  How that participation was executed may have been when the wheels fell off the wagon.
 

Haggis

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Colin P said:
Perhaps they felt the justification was to increase recruiting?

The old saying "any publicity is good publicity" doesn't apply here.
 

Colin Parkinson

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I suspect more like; "Lets look cool, mean, tough and proud" Which is the sort stuff that gets people to join.
 

ballz

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Haggis said:
I think you missed my point.  No doubt the CO was aware and authorized participation, tasking it down through his C of C.  How that participation was executed may have been when the wheels fell off the wagon.

In that case yes, I did miss your point.
 

PuckChaser

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I did a change of command parade in FFO with helmets and weapons, trying desperately to do proper drills movements as directed. Some COs and RSMs are special people I tell ya...
 

dapaterson

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If the CO signed off on the order that directed the dress and deportment, it's on him - even if he just did a "sign here, sir".

Heck, I've heard of a CO who sent back a FORCE test asking "are the timings for these two elements reversed, because they seem odd".  If a CO signs without reading, it's their own fault.
 

Haggis

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dapaterson said:
If the CO signed off on the order that directed the dress and deportment, it's on him - even if he just did a "sign here, sir".

Thursday night
OPI:  "Here's the parade order for the weekend, sir.  Dress for the marching contingent will be CADPAT and fighting order with weapons.  They will wear regimental turbans, sir, no helmets."

CO;  "Right, thanks." (scans document, looks good, signs it.. "Here you go, Carl.  Let me know how it goes on Tuesday."

Parade Day morning:

OPI:  "Right, troops, it's gonna be a long one, so carry at the low ready and keep your fingers off the trigger, just like a ruck march, okay?"

Senior NCM: "Sir??"

OPI:  "It's all good.  It's a parade honouring warriors.  9er signed off on it.  We're good to go at the low ready - trust me."
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=Haggis]

OPI:  "Right, troops, it's gonna be a long one, so carry at the low ready and keep your fingers off the trigger, just like a ruck march, okay?"

[/quote]

I would have said carry at the high ready with the butt in the shoulder, eyes just above the sight. Sweeping the rifle right to left and using the sight to check roof tops not and then.

Gotta put on a show.
 

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Haggis said:
Thursday night
OPI:  "Here's the parade order for the weekend, sir.  Dress for the marching contingent will be CADPAT and fighting order with weapons.  They will wear regimental turbans, sir, no helmets."

CO;  "Right, thanks." (scans document, looks good, signs it.. "Here you go, Carl.  Let me know how it goes on Tuesday."

Parade Day morning:

OPI:  "Right, troops, it's gonna be a long one, so carry at the low ready and keep your fingers off the trigger, just like a ruck march, okay?"

Senior NCM: "Sir??"

OPI:  "It's all good.  It's a parade honouring warriors.  9er signed off on it.  We're good to go at the low ready - trust me."
This was an interesting topic of discussion yesterday at our Ops meeting...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

FSTO

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garb811 said:
But what's a poor PRes CO to think about all that Dress Manual and Drill and Ceremonial stuff when you see a guard mounted for the CDS in flight suits, CADPAT and NCD with accoutrements?

I wish he would quit doing this.
 

Blackadder1916

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Though it is without a doubt that someone crapped the bed with regard to CAF participation in the 2019 Toronto Nagar Kirtan, it should be noted that this is not the first occasion when Canadian troops paraded at the event.  It was just lower key in the past.

Toronto 2018  (disregard the title, it is the 2018 event, the video was uploaded a year ago)
https://youtu.be/Uc3oXcW_O6Y?t=857
Toronto 2017
https://youtu.be/JWOZKQdOxEo?t=754

I wonder what possessed whoever made the decision to arm the troops and crank it up a notch or two.

Toronto is not the only location where the CF provided a presence.  This years Nagar Kirtan in Calgary is still about a week and a half away so I wonder if this incident will affect the decision making process out here, but there didn't appear to be any problems last year.

Calgary 2018
https://youtu.be/Pj0fkmdkau4?t=121 (Cadets)
https://youtu.be/Pj0fkmdkau4?t=176 (Navy)
https://youtu.be/Pj0fkmdkau4?t=194 (Army)

Though back in 2015 it seemed to be a less martial military presence.
Calgary 2015
https://youtu.be/_iQPFsEwC6A?t=755  This contingent did not appear to have much of a Sikh connection, but maybe there was a reason the FD Amb made an appearance.  https://youtu.be/_iQPFsEwC6A?t=1482  and https://youtu.be/_iQPFsEwC6A?t=1949

While it has been several years since I attended as a spectator, it is always a good event and one should never go away hungry.  Carrying weapons would (IMO) interfere with one of the joys of being there.
https://youtu.be/iH4rXKkbDF0?t=202

Maybe the British Army had the right idea in their participation at this one.
http://www.nationalsikhmuseum.com/news-and-events/derby-vaisakhi-nagar-kirtan-2015-along-with-british-army-148-fd-coy-104-bn-reme-derby
 

Bzzliteyr

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Blackadder1916 said:
Though it is without a doubt that someone crapped the bed with regard to CAF participation in the 2019 Toronto Nagar Kirtan, it should be noted that this is not the first occasion when Canadian troops paraded at the event.  It was just lower key in the past.

Toronto 2018  (disregard the title, it is the 2018 event, the video was uploaded a year ago)
https://youtu.be/Uc3oXcW_O6Y?t=857
Toronto 2017
https://youtu.be/JWOZKQdOxEo?t=754

I wonder what possessed whoever made the decision to arm the troops and crank it up a notch or two.

Toronto is not the only location where the CF provided a presence.  This years Nagar Kirtan in Calgary is still about a week and a half away so I wonder if this incident will affect the decision making process out here, but there didn't appear to be any problems last year.

Calgary 2018
https://youtu.be/Pj0fkmdkau4?t=121 (Cadets)
https://youtu.be/Pj0fkmdkau4?t=176 (Navy)
https://youtu.be/Pj0fkmdkau4?t=194 (Army)

Though back in 2015 it seemed to be a less martial military presence.
Calgary 2015
https://youtu.be/_iQPFsEwC6A?t=755  This contingent did not appear to have much of a Sikh connection, but maybe there was a reason the FD Amb made an appearance.  https://youtu.be/_iQPFsEwC6A?t=1482  and https://youtu.be/_iQPFsEwC6A?t=1949

While it has been several years since I attended as a spectator, it is always a good event and one should never go away hungry.  Carrying weapons would (IMO) interfere with one of the joys of being there.
https://youtu.be/iH4rXKkbDF0?t=202

Maybe the British Army had the right idea in their participation at this one.
http://www.nationalsikhmuseum.com/news-and-events/derby-vaisakhi-nagar-kirtan-2015-along-with-british-army-148-fd-coy-104-bn-reme-derby

So, sitting in the G3 shop in Calgary reading this to my G3. We look at each other and go "Hmmm" as there is nothing on our radar for participation in the parade. For the record, no message has been sent out in regards to how to participate... Watch and shoot?

Fd Amb presence is because of the Sikh in that unit I suspect.

I can't access those Youtube links on the DWAN so there's that.
 

Eye In The Sky

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FSTO said:
I wish he would quit doing this.

I think you Navy guys have your own issues though  ;D

https://www.facebook.com/MaritimeForcesAtlantic/videos/353814801933699/

Who is that on the memorial taking the salute with a ball hat on...in DEUs?  ???
 
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