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Domestic Terrorism/Public Attacks on CAF Personnel

Ping Monkey

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Man accused in military centre stabbing acquitted of terror charges

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/man-accused-in-military-centre-stabbing-acquitted-of-terror-charges-1.3928605


The Canadian Press
Published Monday, May 14, 2018 11:30AM EDT
TORONTO -- A man with schizophrenia who attacked soldiers at a military recruitment centre in Toronto has been acquitted of terror-related charges and found not criminally responsible for lesser offences due to mental illness.


Judge Ian MacDonnell says Ayanle Hassan Ali's actions in May 2016 do not fit the intended scope of Canadian terrorism laws.


Ali had pleaded not guilty to three counts of attempted murder, three counts of assault with a weapon, two counts of assault causing bodily harm and one count of carrying a weapon for the purpose of committing an offence, all for the benefit or at the direction of a terror organization.


His lawyers had argued that because he committed his actions alone and had never been in contact with any terror groups, he should be found not guilty on the terror charges. They also argued he should be found not criminally responsible for the lesser included offences of attempted murder, assault and weapons offences.


The prosecution argued that Canadian terror laws could apply to Ali because he acted as a "terrorist group of one."


The judge ruled against the Crown's argument, saying the federal government's intention behind terrorism laws must be taken into account.
 

brihard

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Not surprising in the least. And an NCR verdict isn’t a free pass, he’ll probably be in secure custody for a long time.
 

Jed

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Brihard said:
Not surprising in the least. And an NCR verdict isn’t a free pass, he’ll probably be in secure custody for a long time.
Probably about as long as the guy who beheaded a person on the bus in Manitoba.
 

brihard

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Jed said:
Probably about as long as the guy who beheaded a person on the bus in Manitoba.

Vince Li was held in secure psych custody for eight years- which coincidentally is three years longer than the minimum (and common) sentence for attempted murder. Though in any case the custodial time for an NCR verdict has nothing to do with the offense severity and everything with how long it takes to treat and stabilize someone.
 
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jollyjacktar

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Brihard said:
Vince Li was held in secure psych custody for eight years- which coincidentally is three years longer than the minimum (and common) sentence for attempted murder. Though in any case the custodial time for an NCR verdict has nothing to do with the offense severity and everything with how long it takes to treat and stabilize someone.

But seeing as he went all the way to cannibalism after decapitating his victim, what's the minimun sentence for that?  As a rule?
 

brihard

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jollyjacktar said:
But seeing as he went all the way to cannibalism after decapitating his victim, what's the minimun sentence for that?  As a rule?

Irrelevant, as that’s not what we’re talking about. There is no ratio relating length of treatment to potential custodial sentences. I was merely noting that the length of time in secure treatment can be very considerable, and should in no way be viewed as an easy dodge. Severe mental health cases are one of the things our system handles pretty well. Someone whose psychosis presents a danger to the public may be held indefinitely if needed. Their disposition is evaluated periodically my the provincial mental health review board, and if they remain deemed dangerous to the public, they won’t be getting released. A person can enter the criminal mental health system for quite minor violent offenses that would net negligible time in custody, yet in the mental health system they stay in secure custody for many years. Compliance with conditions and medications is foremost in this.
 

brihard

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Sheep Dog AT said:
Li got off easy. Since he’s cured he should be in prison.

How do you figure? If someone is so mentally disordered that they are psychotic and not capable of controlling their actions, how can they be held morally or legally blameworthy? The principle is no different from if someone had a brain tumor or some other physical disorder that affected their behaviour. Or for that matter someone who has a heart attack while driving and strikes and kills someone. If they could not choose or control their behaviour due to a medical issue, then the onus on the state is to address the public safetyconcern  and the medical issue- but not to punish something that was not a deliberate or considered act.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t *like* what this can look like, but we have to contend with cold hard facts. Emotionality has no role in justice policy. What do the facts say, what makes sense, and what works?

Consider that any one of us could develop a degenerative medical condition that could render us temporarily or permanently unable to control our behaviour. In fact many of us eventually will in our old age. Some people simply suffer from such things when they are much younger and physically capable of dangerous actions.
 

Scoobie Newbie

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Drunk drivers are still held accountable. I’m not suggesting he spend the rest of his years in a prison camp but if he decides to go off his meds who’s gonna be accountable? 
 

mariomike

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Sheep Dog AT said:
Drunk drivers are still held accountable.

True. On the other hand,

Brihard said:
If someone is so mentally disordered that they are psychotic and not capable of controlling their actions, how can they be held morally or legally blameworthy?
 

Haggis

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Sheep Dog AT said:
Drunk drivers are still held accountable. I’m not suggesting he spend the rest of his years in a prison camp but if he decides to go off his meds who’s gonna be accountable?

if you're comparing the consciously chosen actions of an impaired driver with the unconsciously caused actions of a driver who suffers a medical crisis while at the wheel, then you're comparing apples and bricks.
 

medicineman

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Sheep Dog AT said:
Li got off easy. Since he’s cured he should be in prison.

He has an incurable brain disease - it's been treated and is in remission...so long as he stays on his meds.

I do take issue with people knowingly stopping their meds and then something like this happens.  I've looked after my fair share of folks that have done some pretty wacked out stuff because they didn't like their medication side effects and decided to stop them...and then snap when the hallucinations return.  I don't think that the relatively few people this (horribly violent acts) happens to should be trusted on their own in the community - IMO, they should stay under supervision until their disease burns out (which it does in some cases after a certain age) or they pass away.  The person made a conscious decision that led to dire events - the consequence, while doesn't necessarily need to be a forensic lock down for life, should result in incarceration at a treatment facility, since they can't be trusted to look after themselves.  In Vince Li's case and others I've been privy to, it would also be for his protection - there is still a lot of bad blood flowing due to his actions and the ultimate result for him.

:2c:

MM
 

brihard

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Generally speaking, those who are found NCR have an extremely low rate of violent recidivism. The mental health system attached to our criminal justice system overall delivers excellent results in terms of recidivism rates.

There’s a huge difference between choosing to drink, getting sloshed and running someone else, and being afflicted with a mental health disorder that crippled your reasoning and ability to make choices.
 
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jollyjacktar

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That being said, l would be somewhat uncomfortable with him as a neighbour if it is only his medication keeping him in check.  To me, that's only one safety on someone who lost the bubble like he did.  I would prefer a redundancy of some sort.

Not very snag of me, l know, but there it is.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Man armed with knife arrested on Parliament Hill

A man armed with a knife was arrested on Parliament Hill on Monday morning, officials have confirmed.

Vice News first reported the story on Monday afternoon, several hours after the incident occurred during the ceremonial changing of the guard, around 10:15 a.m. ET. The outlet reported that the man had attempted to stab a soldier participating in the display.


Department of National Defence spokesperson Daniel Le Bouthillier confirmed that “due to the quick reaction of our soldiers, RCMP and Parliamentary Protective Services, the potential threat was identified and neutralised.”

He added that “as the matter is currently under investigation by the Ottawa Police Service, any other comments at this point would be inappropriate.”

It’s unclear if the attacker has been charged, and there has been no word on possible motivations. The RCMP have confirmed they are not involved in the investigation, and referred all questions to Ottawa Police.

The municipal police department confirmed to Global News that there was “an incident,” and that a male was arrested on the Hill and handed over to Ottawa police. He remains in custody.

They would not say if the actual incident occurred inside or outside the Parliamentary precinct, or confirm that it was an attempted stabbing.

The changing of the guard is a daily event in downtown Ottawa during the summer and involves dozens of soldiers. It begins at the same time every morning (10 a.m. ET).

Security on and around Parliament Hill has been increased significantly since a terror-linked shooting in October 2014 that resulted in the death of Cpl. Nathan Cirillo as he stood guard near the National War Memorial.

 

brihard

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From what I'm hearing from a couple angles on this, don't be too quick to jump to conclusions on the terrorism side of things. From one of my troops on scene, the article does slightly overstate the actions the suspect took, although there was a physical altercation.

Generally speaking, Parliament Hill is like a bug lamp for people who aren't calibrated quite right.
 

dapaterson

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Brihard said:
Generally speaking, Parliament Hill is like a bug lamp for people who aren't calibrated quite right.

Yes, but in this case we're talking about a member of the public, not a Member of Parliament...
 

Remius

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Brihard said:
From what I'm hearing from a couple angles on this, don't be too quick to jump to conclusions on the terrorism side of things. From one of my troops on scene, the article does slightly overstate the actions the suspect took, although there was a physical altercation.

Generally speaking, Parliament Hill is like a bug lamp for people who aren't calibrated quite right.

Yup. Pretty much.

When I worked for the NCC last century I can attest to plenty of mental health cases around and even living on the grounds.
 
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