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Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

George Wallace

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Ostrozac said:
Some reserve units are established in the Army Reserve Establishment as a rifle company plus a rifle platoon. I'm not sure what the math is that they used, but that would be one factor I think.

Or the Unit is located in several locations.  If you look at 6 Int Coy in Edmonton, it also is located in two locations outside of the Edmonton area: one in Winnipeg and one in Vancouver.
 

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George Wallace said:
Or the Unit is located in several locations.  If you look at 6 Int Coy in Edmonton, it also is located in two locations outside of the Edmonton area: one in Winnipeg and one in Vancouver.

No.

A geographically dispersed sub-unit would not show up as a fraction in the ARE, since 1/2 + 1/2 = 1.
 

McG

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So how are "independent sub-units" (such as 20th Independent Field Battery) counted in the previously seen numbers.  I assume they add to the 183.5 mission sub-units, but don't count toward the 123 unit HQs.  That would mean the average unit HQ is responsible for less than the 1.49 mission sub-units one might calculate with the available numbers.
 

McG

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Never mind.  Looks like it does not influence the math very much at all.  With the Med Coys all removed from Army, the Sigs Sqns all upgraded to regiments, and the engineer squadrons amalgamated into CERs, there are only two "independent sub-units" remaining in the PRes: the 20th Independent Field Battery and the 116th Independent Field Battery.
 

Ostrozac

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MCG said:
there are only two "independent sub-units" remaining in the PRes: the 20th Independent Field Battery and the 116th Independent Field Battery.

Also there are the five intelligence companies which are units that are also sub-units, hence the 5 to 5 unit HQ to mission element ratio.

Personally, I never saw anything wrong with a Reserve Company commanded by a Major being its own unit. It eliminates some overhead and reduces the careeer management challenge of producing PRes LCol and CWO.

 

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Ostrozac said:
Personally, I never saw anything wrong with a Reserve Company commanded by a Major being its own unit. It eliminates some overhead and reduces the careeer management challenge of producing PRes LCol and CWO. 
This is the model that I advocate.  The company/squadron/battery is established as a unit while miniature formations (we will call them regiments or battalions) are established under LCols.  Reserve Brigades are eliminated.  Making the majors into COs ensures that all the authority to manage the organization remains local.
3 Canadian Division Reserves
  • 6 Int Coy (Edmonton)

The British Columbia Regiment
  • A Sqn Recce, The Duke of Connaught's Own Rifles (Vancouver)
  • B Sqn Recce, The British Columbia Dragoons (Kelowna and Vernon)
  • A Coy Infantry, The Vancouver Regiment (Irish Fusiliers of Canada) (Vancouver)
  • B Coy Infantry, The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada (Vancouver)
  • C Coy Infantry, The Canadian Scottish Regiment (Princess Mary's) (Victoria, Nanaimo, Comox)
  • D Coy Infantry, The Rocky Mountain Rangers (Kamloops, Prince George)
  • E Coy Infantry, The Royal Westminster Regiment (New Westminster, Chilliwack)
  • M Coy Mortars, RCA (Vancouver)
  • 39 S&T Coy (Richmond)
  • 39 Maint Coy (Victoria)
  • 39 Signal Coy (Victoria, Nanaimo)

The Alberta Regiment (4th Battalion, PPCLI)
  • A Sqn Recce, The South Alberta Light Horse (Medicine Hat)
  • B Sqn Recce, The Alberta Dragoons (Edmonton)
  • C Sqn Recce, The King's Own Calgary Regiment (Calgary)
  • A Coy Infantry, The Loyal Edmonton Regiment (Edmonton,)
  • B Coy Infantry, The Calgary Highlanders (Calgary)
  • M Coy Mortars, RCA (Red Deer)

The Central Canada Regiment
  • A Sqn Recce, The Fort Garry Horse (Winnipeg)
  • B Sqn Recce, The Saskatchewan Dragoons (Moose Jaw)
  • A Coy Infantry, The Royal Regina Rifles (Regina)
  • B Coy Infantry, The Royal Winnipeg Rifles (Winnipeg)
  • C Coy Infantry, The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada (Winnipeg)
  • D Coy Infantry, The North Saskatchewan Regiment (Saskatoon, Prince Albert)
  • E Coy Infantry, The Lake Superior Scottish Regiment (Thunder Bay)
  • M Coy Mortars, RCA (Kenora)

The Canadian Arctic Regiment
  • A Coy Infantry, The Yellowknife Regiment (Yellowknife)
  • B Coy Infantry, The Yukon Regiment (Whitehorse)

3 Field Artillery Regiment
  • A Bty, RCA (Regina)
  • B Bty, RCA (Brandon)
  • C Bty, RCA (Lethbridge)
  • D Bty, RCA (Edmonton)
  • E Bty, RCA (Victoria)
  • F Bty, RCA (Nanaimo)

3 Field Engineer Regiment 
  • 1 Fd Sqn (Edmonton)
  • 2 Fd Sqn (Trail)
  • 3 Fd Sqn (Winnipeg)
  • 4 Fd Sqn (Saskatoon)
  • 5 Fd Sqn (Calgary)

3 Engineer Support Regiment 
  • 1 Fd Sqn (Vancouver)
  • 2 Bridge & Raft Sqn (Chilliwack)
  • 3 Const Sqn (Abbotsford)
  • 3 Mapping Troop (Vancouver)

3 Signal Regiment 
  • 38 Signal Coy (Regina, Saskatoon)
  • 40 Signal Coy (Vancouver)
  • 41 Signal Company (Edmonton)
  • 42 Signal Coy (Winnipeg, Thunder Bay)

3 Maintenance Battalion
  • 41 Maint Coy (Edmonton)
  • 38 Maint Coy (Winnipeg)

3 Supply & Transport Battalion
  • 38 S&T Coy (Thunder Bay)
  • 40 S&T Coy (Edmonton)
  • 41 S&T Coy (Calgary)
  • 42 S&T Coy (Saskatoon)


4 Canadian Division Reserves
  • 2 Int Coy (Toronto)

Canadian Guards
  • Ceremonial Guard
  • A Bty, Canadian Guards Artillery, RCA (Ottawa)
  • A Sqn Recce, The Governor General's Horse Guards (Toronto)
  • B Sqn Recce, 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards (Kanata)
  • A Coy Infantry, Governor General's Foot Guards (Ottawa)
  • B Coy Infantry, The Canadian Grenadier Guards (Montreal)
  • C Coy Infantry, Governor General's Foot Guards (Barrhaven)
  • D Coy Infantry, The Canadian Grenadier Guards (Montreal)
  • S&T Coy (Ottawa)

Ontario Scottish and Highland Regiment
  • A Coy Infantry, The Essex Kent Scottish (Chatham)
  • B Coy Infantry, The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada  (Hamilton)
  • C Coy Infantry, 48th Highlanders of Canada (Toronto)
  • D Coy Infantry, Royal Highland Fusiliers of Canada (Cambridge, Kitchener)
  • E Coy Infantry, Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders (Cornwall)
  • F Coy Infantry,The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (Ottawa)
  • G Coy Infantry, The Lorne Scots (Brampton, Oakville, Georgetown)
  • H Coy Infantry,The Toronto Scottish Regiment (Mississauga)
  • M Coy Mortars, Lanark and Renfrew Scottish (Pembroke)
  • S&T Coy (Hamilton)

Western Ontario Regiment (4th Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment)
  • A Sqn Recce, 1st Hussars (RCAC) (London, Sarnia)
  • B Sqn Recce, The Windsor Regiment (RCAC) (Windsor)
  • A Coy Infantry, The London and Oxford Fusiliers (London)
  • B Coy Infantry, The Elgin Regiment (St Thomas)
  • C Coy Infantry, The Perth Regiment (Stratford)
  • D Coy Infantry, The Grey and Simcoe Foresters (Owen Sound, Barrie)
  • S&T Coy (London, Windsor)

5th Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment
  • A Sqn Recce, The Queen's York Rangers (RCAC) (Toronto, Aurora)
  • A Coy Infantry, The Queen's Own Rifles of Canada (Scarborough)
  • B Coy Infantry, The Royal Regiment of Canada (Toronto)
  • C Coy Infantry, The Lincoln and Welland Regiment (St. Catherine’s, Welland)
  • D Coy Infantry, The Royal Hamilton Light Infantry (Hamilton)
  • M Coy Mortars (St Catharines)
  • S&T Coy (Toronto)

6th Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment
  • A Sqn, The Ontario Regiment (RCAC) (Oshawa)
  • A Coy Infantry, Irish Regiment of Canada (Sudbury)
  • B Coy Infantry, The Princess of Wales' Own Regiment (Kingston)
  • C Coy Infantry, The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment (Belleville, Cobourg, Peterborough)
  • D Coy Infantry, The Brockville Rifles (Brockville)
  • E Coy Infantry, The Algonquin Regiment (North Bay, Timmins)
  • M Coy Mortars, The Prince of Wales Rangers (Peterborough)
  • S&T Coy (North Bay, Sault Ste Marie)

4 Field Artillery Regiment
  • A Bty, Toronto Regiment, RCA (Toronto)
  • B Bty, RCA (Brantford, Simcoe)
  • C Bty, RCA (Sault Ste. Marie)
  • D Bty, RCA (Hamilton, Guelph)

4 Field Engineer Regiment
  • 1 Fd Sqn (London, Windsor)
  • 2 Fd Sqn (Toronto)
  • 3 Fd Sqn (Ottawa, Orleans)
  • 4 Fd Sqn (Hamilton, Waterloo)

4 Signals Regiment
  • 31 Signal Company (Hamilton, London)
  • 32 Signal Company (Toronto, Borden)
  • 33 Signal Company (Ottawa, Kingston)

4 Maintenance Battalion
  • 31 Maint Coy (London, Hamilton)
  • 32 Maint Coy (Ottawa, Prescott)
  • 33 Maint Coy (Toronto)


2 Canadian Division Reserves
  • 4e Cie de rens (Montreal, Québec)

4e Bataillon, Royal 22e Régiment
  • A Sqn Recce, The Royal Canadian Hussars (Montreal)
  • Esc B, Régiment de Hull (RCAC) (Gatineau)
  • A Coy Infantry, Royal Montreal Regiment (Montreal)
  • B Coy Infantry, The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada (Montreal)
  • Cie C infanterie, Fusiliers Mont-Royal (Montreal)
  • Cie D infanterie, Le Régiment de Châteauguay (Laval)
  • Cie E infanterie, Le Régiment de St.-Hyacinthe (St.-Hyacinthe)
  • Cie F infanterie, Le Régiment de St.-Hyacinthe (Drummondville)
  • Cie G infanterie, Le Régiment de Maisonneuve (Montreal)

5e Bataillon, Royal 22e Régiment
  • Esc A, 12e Régiment blindé du Canada (Trois-Rivières)
  • Esc B, The Sherbrooke Hussars (Sherbrooke)
  • Cie A infanterie, Voltigeurs de Québec (Québec)
  • Cie B infanterie, Les Fusiliers du St-Laurent (Rimouski)
  • Cie C infanterie, Le Régiment de la Chaudière (Lévis)
  • Cie D infanterie, Régiment du Saguenay (Saguenay)
  • Cie E infanterie, Les Fusiliers de Sherbrooke (Sherbrooke)

2e Régiment d’artillerie de campagne
  • Bty A, ARC (Montreal)
  • Bty B, ARC (Shawinigan)
  • Bty C, ARC (Lévis, Val-Bélair, Montmagny)

2e Régiment de génie de campagne
  • 1e Escadron de Génie (Montreal)
  • 2e Escadron de Génie (Québec)
  • 3e Escadron de Génie (Rouyn)

2e Régiment des transmissions
  • 35 Escadron des transmissions (Québec and Sherbrooke)
  • 34 Escadron des transmissions (Montreal)

2 Maintenance Battalion
  • 35 Maint Coy (Québec)
  • 34 Maint Coy (Montreal)

2 Supply & Transport Battalion
  • 35 S&T Coy (Québec)
  • 34 S&T Coy (St Hubert)


5 Canadian Division Reserves
  • 3 Int Coy (Halifax)

The Royal New Brunswick Regiment 
  • A Sqn Recce, 8th Canadian Hussars (Moncton)
  • B Sqn Recce, The Prince Edward Island Regiment (Charlottetown)
  • A Coy Infantry, The Carleton and York Regiment (Fredericton)
  • B Coy Infantry, The North Shore Regiment (Bathurst)
  • C Coy Infantry, The Carleton and York Regiment (Grand Falls)

The Nova Scotia Regiment
  • A Sqn Recce, The Halifax Rifles (RCAC) (Halifax)
  • A Coy Infantry, The Nova Scotia Highlanders (Truro)
  • B Coy Infantry, The Cape Breton Highlanders (Sydney)
  • C Coy Infantry, The Princess Louise's Fusiliers (Halifax)
  • D Coy Infantry, The West Nova Scotia Regiment (Kentville)

The Royal Newfoundland Regiment
  • A Coy Infantry (St. John’s)
  • B Coy Infantry (Corner Brook)
  • 56 Engineer Squadron (St. John’s)
  • 37 S&T Coy (St. John’s)
  • 37 Signal Coy (St. John’s)

5 Field Artillery Regiment
  • A Bty, RCA (Halifax)
  • B Bty, RCA (Yarmouth)
  • C Bty, RCA (Saint John)

5 Field Engineer Regiment
  • 1 Engineer Squadron (Fredericton)
  • 2 Engineer Squadron (Sydney)
  • 3 Engineer Squadron (Halifax)
  • 5 Mapping Troop (Fredericton)

5 Signals Regiment
  • 1 Signal Company (Halifax, Glace Bay)
  • 2 Signal Company (Saint John, Charlottetown)

36 Service Battalion
  • 1 S&T Coy (Saint John)
  • 2 S&T Coy (Sydney)
  • 36 Maint Coy (Halifax)
 

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Ostrozac said:
Also there are the five intelligence companies which are units that are also sub-units, hence the 5 to 5 unit HQ to mission element ratio.

Personally, I never saw anything wrong with a Reserve Company commanded by a Major being its own unit. It eliminates some overhead and reduces the careeer management challenge of producing PRes LCol and CWO.

If you go back to the notion of the Captain leading a company, with his assistant(s) the Lieutenant(s), and the Major being the Colonel's man then the system readily falls into place.  The Company belongs to the Captain.  The Major ensures that the Captain is performing to the Colonel's expectations and that he/she has all the tools they need to get the job done.  The Colonel's Assistants get to be applied as the Colonel sees fit.  Some could be put permanently in charge of tactical groupings of companies.

 

George Wallace

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So?  Where would such units as 64 Fd Bty, 10 Fd Regt RCA, Yorkton (and Melville), Sask., fall into this org, as you have 10 Fd Regt RCA, Regina as a Bty?  Do they now fall under Corps Troops?  A whole new level of HQ.... >:D

MCG said:
This is the model that I advocate.  The company/squadron/battery is established as a unit while miniature formations (we will call them regiments or battalions) are established under LCols.  Reserve Brigades are eliminated.  Making the majors into COs ensures that all the authority to manage the organization remains local.
 

daftandbarmy

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Chris Pook said:
If you go back to the notion of the Captain leading a company, with his assistant(s) the Lieutenant(s), and the Major being the Colonel's man then the system readily falls into place.  The Company belongs to the Captain.  The Major ensures that the Captain is performing to the Colonel's expectations and that he/she has all the tools they need to get the job done.  The Colonel's Assistants get to be applied as the Colonel sees fit.  Some could be put permanently in charge of tactical groupings of companies.

Please... no.

There is no way a a Capt or Maj would put up with all the crap ...

They download so much trivial garbage onto CO's
 

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George Wallace said:
So?  Where would such units as 64 Fd Bty, 10 Fd Regt RCA, Yorkton (and Melville), Sask., fall into this org, as you have 10 Fd Regt RCA, Regina as a Bty?  Do they now fall under Corps Troops?  A whole new level of HQ.... >:D
How big is 64 Fd Bty?  Maybe Regina and Yorkton together constitute a single bty, or maybe 3 Div gets one bty more than I have shown.

NinerSix said:
MPs anywhere in there?
No.  The MP empire decided it wanted to own all the toys.  There are no more MP in the Army PRes
 

Ostrozac

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NinerSix said:
MPs anywhere in there?

Yes, they are not in the Army Reserve anymore. Under the most recent reorgs the MP reserve now are under command of the Provost Marshall (and the medical reserve are under command of the Surgeon General).
 

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MCG said:
No.  The MP empire decided it wanted to own all the toys.  There are no more MP in the Army PRes

Well, there are still Army Reserve MPs, but we belong to the CF MP Gp, under the Provost Marshal whom reports directly to the VCDS, rather than previously under Divisional and Brigade command.
 

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MCG said:
How big is 64 Fd Bty?  Maybe Regina and Yorkton together constitute a single bty, or maybe 3 Div gets one bty more than I have shown.
No.  The MP empire decided it wanted to own all the toys.  There are no more MP in the Army PRes

What happens if you take the tactical out of the discussion and just focus on the administrative?

Rather than talking about whether or not you can raise, train and retain a sufficient number of troops in a given location to man guns that are not in existence, what happens if you just concentrate on raising and retaining bodies locally.  You facilitate what common training you can at the individual and local level.  You bring together eager, knowledgeable soldiers for tactical training.
 

daftandbarmy

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Chris Pook said:
What happens if you take the tactical out of the discussion and just focus on the administrative?

Rather than talking about whether or not you can raise, train and retain a sufficient number of troops in a given location to man guns that are not in existence, what happens if you just concentrate on raising and retaining bodies locally.  You facilitate what common training you can at the individual and local level.  You bring together eager, knowledgeable soldiers for tactical training.

Isn't that what happened in 1914 with the introduction of numbered battalions?
 

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daftandbarmy said:
Isn't that what happened in 1914 with the introduction of numbered battalions?

With pluses, minuses and Oak Leaves.
 

McG

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Chris Pook said:
Rather than talking about whether or not you can raise, train and retain a sufficient number of troops in a given location to man guns that are not in existence, what happens if you just concentrate on raising and retaining bodies locally.  You facilitate what common training you can at the individual and local level.  You bring together eager, knowledgeable soldiers for tactical training.
That is generally how the PRes units makes things work.  IT locally, and then bring the unit's geographically separated groups together in a training area for CT.
 

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Just recently went through this exercise:

4 Aug 1914 - War declared

21 Aug 1914 - Volunteers of the 103rd Calgary Rifles board the train out of town - 2 and a half weeks after war declared
22 Aug 1914 - 10th Bn CEF stood up at Valcartier with volunteers from 60th Rifles of Canada (Moose Jaw), 95th Sask Rifles (Regina), 90th Wpg Rifles and 99th Manitoba Rangers
31 Aug 1914 - 10th Bn CEF strength of 53 officers and 1528 other ranks  - 4 weeks after war declared
31 Aug 1914 - Volunteers of the 103rd Calgary Rifles arrive at Valcartier to an empty field 9 days after boarding the train in Calgary

27 Sep 1914 - 10th Bn CEF receives uniforms - 8 weeks after war declared
29 Sep 1914 - 10th Bn CEF boards ships at Quebec
3 Oct 1914 - 10th Bn leaves Quebec in convoy
14 Oct 1914 - 10th Bn arrives in Plymouth, UK
20 Oct 1914 - 10th Bn on Salisbury Plain and training commences - 2 and a half months after war declared

10 Feb 1915 - 10th Bn sails for France - 6 months after war declared and 4 month after equipping, organizing (and re-org, and re-re-org, and re-re-re-org and re-re-re-re-org (4 or 8 companies))
22 Feb 1915 - 10th Bn baptism of fire as some troops shelled doing trench duties.

22 Apr 1915 - 10th Bn earns Oak Leaves at St Juliens Wood. - 8 months after war declared, 6 months after training commenced, 2 months after introduction to theatre and baptism of fire.

Then the learning started.... and continued for four years.

 

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MCG said:
That is generally how the PRes units makes things work.  IT locally, and then bring the unit's geographically separated groups together in a training area for CT.

That was the way we used to make it work as well.  You did what you could with what you had. 

Maybe the institution could just focus on working with that reality and helping it to succeed at what it can do rather than pining for change to create a system that will never exist.
 

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Chris Pook said:
That was the way we used to make it work as well.  You did what you could with what you had. 

Maybe the institution could just focus on working with that reality and helping it to succeed at what it can do rather than pining for change to create a system that will never exist.

Part of that problem I feel is a lack of clear defined direction of what the CAF wants out of the reserves. Sure they have said very broad terms like augmentation of the reg force, but thats a lot harder to do given the structure of the CAF (not to mention many trades don't get trained to their reg force counterparts level). I think it would help if every PRes unit had a parent reg force unit that could advise and assist in guiding the training of the PRes units to what that particular unit needs.
 
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