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Disobeying an unlawful/unethical order - Mandatory Vaccinations

Weinie

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At my level, I would have to assume such an order would be lawful and there would be no use questioning it. I think it is a good question even if the likelihood is less than 1%. The 1% has happened before and it will happen again.

To me it is a simple scenario, and I don't see much difference in it, than mandating a passport to achieve the same goal. One is a type of cohesion and the other is more forceful and deliberate.

They both can be utilised to get to the end state that is desired. What alternative is left if the passports don't get us to 90% vaccinated and or people don't do the boosters if they are required and we are stuck in perpetual lockdown?
At your level? WTF are you talking about?

The scenario that you propose is not a simple scenario, it is beyond fantasy/reality. You need to grossly expand your understanding of this topic
 

Weinie

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Since March 2020. We've locked them away from their friends, forbid them to touch anything and forced masks on their faces for a virus that's really significantly less dangerous than any other seasonal virus they are exposed to normal. We're sacrificing their mental and social well being to try to save ourselves, and its not even working.
Ummmmmmmmm....... I sorta get the gist of your post.

I am sure that the kids who faced the Blitz were under far more pressure. They, for the most part, turned out OK.

Of more concern to me me is that an Echo, Foxtrot, Golf or name the variant is going to be more virulent/lethal to my kids.
 

Navy_Pete

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SSF or SKF (Special K Forces...cereal killers!) 😁
Sippy Kup Special forces? (SKSF?)


Burnie Burns Conspiracy GIF by Rooster Teeth


I don't have the patience or the crayons to explain it to the tinfoil hat crowd, but fortunately there is a charterpedia! Thanks DoJ!

Provision​


1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
Charterpedia - Section 1 – Reasonable limits

So yes, the GoC can limit your rights, or infringe on your rights as necessary in pursuit of reasonable goals (like limiting a global health pandemic from killing people). Because people aren't iditots and libertarians don't generally form societies, some version of that is built into pretty much every democratic country's laws

If you want unlimited freedoms, move to a country without a functional government. I don't think there will be a mandatory vaccine requirement in Liberia.
 

hattrick72

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At your level? WTF are you talking about?

The scenario that you propose is not a simple scenario, it is beyond fantasy/reality. You need to grossly expand your understanding of this topic
I don't see it as being fantasy/reality for the following reasons:

1. Cost for each hospitalised patient is in the range of $40k. We have finite health resources.
2. Cost of perpetual lockdowns that cause gross government stimulus to sustain our standard of living.
3. The majority of the population is fully vaccinated and are increasingly itching to get back to a better normal.
4. Not every province is mandating vaccine passports to further encourage their population to get vaccinated.
5. The vaccine uptake may need to be above 90% to reach herd immunity.
6. The studies must be completed before they change the age range and could take too long and we are bleeding out too much money with inflation fears.

The way it is orchestrated could very well be different, no cordon around cities. Perhaps it is local civil authority run only and the military is only called to help if mass riots break out.

Given what Navy Pete posted, would it be considered reasonable to vaccinate those under age should the head of government den it justified?
Perhaps the way I brought it up in an overly simplistic form to make it easier to read was the wrong way to go about it.
 

Eye In The Sky

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To me it is a simple scenario, and I don't see much difference in it, than mandating a passport to achieve the same goal. One is a type of cohesion and the other is more forceful and deliberate.

Option 1: mandate passports, citizens have the choice to (a) get vaccinated or (b) not get vaccinated, be subj to and charged the cost of quick tests very often, restrictions in travel and recreation, employment. In this option, they get options and choices and get to 'accept the consequences' if they go with option B.

Option 2: the fed/provincial gov't, law enforcement and Armed Forces install what will be seen as "martial law", surround cities, control movement, then come knocking door-to-door to hold citizens down, including children, and stick needles in them.

Do you seriously not see a massive, massive difference in those COAs?

You mentioned Australian military being used. What they are reportedly doing, and your scenario, are not remotely close in scope/intent.


About 300 troops have been sent to Australia’s largest city to help overstretched police monitor home quarantine for coronavirus patients, and potentially set up roadblocks. The troops will help the police on a door-to-door search to check if people who have contracted COVID are isolating, police commissioner Mick Fuller told reporters during a press conference.

Senior officials have said the soldiers will not be armed, and do not have special enforcement authority, but will be assisting the police.


More than 500 army personnel are already helping police in the city, which has a population of about 5 million people, including monitoring compliance activities at hotels and airports. An additional 200 personnel will be deployed starting Monday.
 

hattrick72

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Option 1: mandate passports, citizens have the choice to (a) get vaccinated or (b) not get vaccinated, be subj to and charged the cost of quick tests very often, restrictions in travel and recreation, employment. In this option, they get options and choices and get to 'accept the consequences' if they go with option B.

Option 2: the fed/provincial gov't, law enforcement and Armed Forces install what will be seen as "martial law", surround cities, control movement, then come knocking door-to-door to hold citizens down, including children, and stick needles in them.

Do you seriously not see a massive, massive difference in those COAs?

You mentioned Australian military being used. What they are reportedly doing, and your scenario, are not remotely close in scope/intent.


About 300 troops have been sent to Australia’s largest city to help overstretched police monitor home quarantine for coronavirus patients, and potentially set up roadblocks. The troops will help the police on a door-to-door search to check if people who have contracted COVID are isolating, police commissioner Mick Fuller told reporters during a press conference.

Senior officials have said the soldiers will not be armed, and do not have special enforcement authority, but will be assisting the police.


More than 500 army personnel are already helping police in the city, which has a population of about 5 million people, including monitoring compliance activities at hotels and airports. An additional 200 personnel will be deployed starting Monday.
Option 1 will not be successful, if the goal is to reach 90%. This 90% threshold is what Ontario wants now. I honestly don't know how long people will put up with paying $240 a COVID test (once we state the gov't will no longer pay for their choice) before they are in the streets protesting aggressively. Add in small pockets of the private sector eliminating workers for their choice. I don't see how that ends peacefully.

I also don't see governments ending lockdowns, interprovincial border restrictions until we reach above that threshold.

What other coa would go as number 2 then? Would we accept the populations will, and allow them to go around unvaccinated?

If coercive policies don't work, what is the next step?
 

Eye In The Sky

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Ontario isn't "Canada". I can tell you, the province I live in, during/after the 3rd wave this spring, the vaccination clinics were going pretty steady. Here in NS, the plan right now is to move to Phase 5 in the middle of Sept.

During phase 5 of Nova Scotia’s reopening plan, we start to move into living with COVID-19. [THIS is the COA we, as a nation, need to move towards IMO....]
  • No restrictions for gatherings or social contacts. All gatherings are permitted without any gathering limits.
  • No social distancing requirement. No mask requirement, including indoor public places and public transportation.
  • Travel restrictions remain in place. Everyone who travels from outside Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island or Newfoundland and Labrador needs to complete the Safe Check-in Form and may need to self-isolate when they arrive in or return to the province. Self-isolation requirements are based on vaccination status and testing.

Do you see why I am wondering why you're on this 'surround the cities, knock on doors!' stuff? If Ontario's population starts to riot and go off the deep end...that is when I'd expect the Fed Govt to have discussions with the Prov govt and possibly begin considering invoking the Emergencies Act, which has greater powers than the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act.

Again...just my amateur 2 cents.
 

Kilted

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I think we will see the vaccination rate go up as restrictions go up against unvaccinated people. I'm sure we might see a few protests from anti-vaxers and the like. But really, the government wouldn't be doing a good job if that didn't happen. Most of the people I know support vaccine passports and would be happy to see anti-vaxers excluded/fired.
 

hattrick72

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I think we will see the vaccination rate go up as restrictions go up against unvaccinated people. I'm sure we might see a few protests from anti-vaxers and the like. But really, the government wouldn't be doing a good job if that didn't happen. Most of the people I know support vaccine passports and would be happy to see anti-vaxers excluded/fired.
I don't think vaccine passports are going to increase the numbers significantly. Especially if we have to move the target from 75% to 90%.

The fact that there are people that can label a person who won't take one vaccine a complete anti-vaxer is scary. This is the ideology that is required to start a door to door campaign. The fact people will be happy a part of the population will lose their livelyhood and become homeless tells me we are a lot closer to doing this for peoples own good than we would admit.
 

RangerRay

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I don't think vaccine passports are going to increase the numbers significantly. Especially if we have to move the target from 75% to 90%.
That is a great national average, but where I work, only 45% of the population has received one shot, and it’s not from difficulty to obtain vaccines. Telling people that they need to get vaccinated to participate in society seems like the best way to increase uptake in these areas.
 

KevinB

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I don't think vaccine passports are going to increase the numbers significantly. Especially if we have to move the target from 75% to 90%.

The fact that there are people that can label a person who won't take one vaccine a complete anti-vaxer is scary. This is the ideology that is required to start a door to door campaign. The fact people will be happy a part of the population will lose their livelyhood and become homeless tells me we are a lot closer to doing this for peoples own good than we would admit.
Eventually the unvaccinated will just die off...

Honestly and maybe this is just my prejudice against the stupid, given the information available, the fact COVID-19 has mutated faster the Influenza - and various other aspects that make it appear to have human assistance in its creation - the variants are getting more "clever" I fail to see the appeal of not getting vaccinated.
*I'm also a Republican

Down here the FDA has fully approved the Pfizer vaccine. The DoD has now ordered it mandatory for all civilian and uniformed personnel.
It is expected that emergency use approval will be given for the children under 12 around October.



If the variants continue to pop up and with greater infection ability, or god forbid vaccine resistance, then at a certain point I do think the world is going to need to make a decision on those who aren't willing to get vaccinated - what that decision is, will probably be significantly unpleasant to most people.
 

hattrick72

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Eventually the unvaccinated will just die off...

Honestly and maybe this is just my prejudice against the stupid, given the information available, the fact COVID-19 has mutated faster the Influenza - and various other aspects that make it appear to have human assistance in its creation - the variants are getting more "clever" I fail to see the appeal of not getting vaccinated.
*I'm also a Republican

Down here the FDA has fully approved the Pfizer vaccine. The DoD has now ordered it mandatory for all civilian and uniformed personnel.
It is expected that emergency use approval will be given for the children under 12 around October.



If the variants continue to pop up and with greater infection ability, or god forbid vaccine resistance, then at a certain point I do think the world is going to need to make a decision on those who aren't willing to get vaccinated - what that decision is, will probably be significantly unpleasant to most people.
Did they approve the current vaccine or did they approve Comirnaty that will be released at a later date without any immunity from liability?

I see sources that say they are the same vaccine and others that say they are different. This is from the FDA website:

A: No. There are no data available on the interchangeability of the Comirnaty and Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine with other COVID-19 vaccines, including the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine. Individuals who have received one dose of the Comirnaty or Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine should receive a second dose of the Comirnaty or Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to complete the vaccination series.

Individuals who have received one dose of Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine should receive a second dose of Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine to complete the vaccination series.

So it looks like they are seperate and interchangable.

I still don't get the " people who say no to the COVID vaccine are stupid" as much as I don't get the "you are stupid for getting the COVID gene therapy" crowd. To me they both look the same.
 

Navy_Pete

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lenaitch

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Never ever confuse education and intelligence, they have very little to do with each other.

Truth. I have more terminal degrees, doctors, lawyers (plus one doctor+lawyer) in my family than any one family deserves.

The higher your level of academic achievement, you know more and more about less and less.
 

Weinie

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Truth. I have more terminal degrees, doctors, lawyers (plus one doctor+lawyer) in my family than any one family deserves.

The higher your level of academic achievement, you know more and more about less and less.
I agree , but certain people are exempt (Journeyman). Because most PhD's only give a shit about their specialty. Their focus is on their niche, and they could care less about the rest of the world and reality.
 

lenaitch

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Honest question: Part VI of the NDA speaks to 'aid to the civil power' in response "a riot or disturbance of the peace" that is beyond provincial capabilities. What was the basis for the military's assistance during Covid, forest fires, Toronto snow storms, etc. Is it simply a request for federal assistance during a declared emergency (and, of course, the military being the only government department with capacity to respond)?
 

Brad Sallows

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Successful viruses are those which are a) highly contagious, and b) not fatal to hosts. Most unvaccinated people won't die; they'll just be sick for a few days. Yes, there may be lingering effects, but FFS, I got one of those lingering effects people whinge about (partial loss/alteration of sense of smell) from common flu.
 

PuckChaser

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Ummmmmmmmm....... I sorta get the gist of your post.

I am sure that the kids who faced the Blitz were under far more pressure. They, for the most part, turned out OK.

Of more concern to me me is that an Echo, Foxtrot, Golf or name the variant is going to be more virulent/lethal to my kids.
Different generation. We both know children back then had more daily hardships so the Blitz would not have been so much of an extreme hardship. Let's also be fair here, a German 250lb bomb is equally as effective at killing someone regardless of their age. COVID19 not so much, and if we're going to say comparisons to Flu is apples to oranges, Blitz comparisons are apples to rolex watches.
 
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