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Disobeying an unlawful/unethical order - Mandatory Vaccinations

hattrick72

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26, 849 deaths in 1.42 M cases in Canada= 1.8% fatality rate. It's based on number of infections, not number of people in a country. It's obviously non-fatal with zero side effects for people who haven't been infected, which is why social distancing, masks, improved ventilation etc slowed down the case numbers (and daily death rate).

In the initial phases some countries had a fatality rate as high as 6-10% of known cases, but that's because their hospitals were overrun so the number of non-critical cases weren't included, inflating the death rate. The delta variant also seems to be more virulent, and no guarantee other variations won't have other side effects. Takes about six-eight weeks total from first shot to two weeks after the last shot before you are fully covered, so if you change your mind later there is a big lag before you're covered.

Long COVID rates are estimated, but not as well understood, but it's significant enough that it's being studied. Even people who weren't hospitalized have had permanent damage to their lungs and heart, and that includes younger people than yourself.

No issue with people refusing the vaccine, just pisses me off when people quote/spread misinformation, manipulate facts, and otherwise talk out their arse. That's not making an educated choice (and actively promoting willful ignorance), but you'll still have to live with whatever consequences that come with that choice, so fill your boots if you want to take the word of random internet experts over legions of experienced immunoligists, epidomologists and other medical folks that have dedicated their lives to keeping people healthy.
Tomydoom
I'm not complaining about health measures and I have followed them. I don't have a problem with people's personal choice, I'm vaccinated. If the military mandates this vaccine, then there will be 10,000-15,000 members that have to make a tough decision and the leadership may not be happy with the numbers. (Maybe it is closer to 5,000 after seeing the empty positions posted in another thread).

Now to the point I was trying to make. We were testing asymptomatic people because apparently they can spread the virus. We were encouraging people to test without symptoms and if they came back positive they were grounded for the 14 days. The number of people that would not go and get tested without symptoms is going to be high. The main reason being they don't have sick days to cover them off if they come back positive.

We don't have a picture of confirmed spread. So by going by the number of confirmed cases is spreading misinformation. You are not doing it nefariously or to be misleading, but nonetheless it is misinformation IMHO.

Without the public health orders, the number of deaths would've been higher. I just don't think it would be much higher than double.

If we look at India they had a 1.3% death rate for confirmed cases and it is 0.03% if you look at the total population. I think the effect is fairly linear and consistent across the world population. I got this number from the Google tracker 426,000 deaths and 32,000,000 cases. I also believe they ran out of testing capability so the case count could be higher, but I haven't confirmed that memory yet.
 

hattrick72

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Given this thread is on disobeying a perceived illegal order, here is my scenario.

Ontario health determines we can't reach herd immunity unless we vaccinate the 12 and under crowd this will ensure 90% of all people are vaccinated. The emergency order that is in effect now is the same emergency order in effect for this scenario.
The CDS orders CAF personal to cordon off every city with a population higher than 100,000 people. No traffic is allowed out, unless they can prove every member in the car is vaccinated. Once the cordons are operational they announce a lockdown. Public health, with the support of local police and CAF personal, will go door to door vaccinate every citizen regardless of age. People that don't comply are either arrested or given a summary offence ticket. This continues until every home has had a visit.


Would the CAF comply, or would this get snuffed out at the higher levels?
 

QV

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Back in late 2020 Stanford University found that COVID-19 had spread far more widely than originally reported. In fact 50-85 times more than the confirmed number of cases. This was in the news very briefly. Stanford was rebuked for this and it became difficult to find the report and it's data online. Stanford's findings suggested the virus though highly contagious was/is far less deadly than was being reported.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Given this thread is on disobeying a perceived illegal order, here is my scenario.

Ontario health determines we can't reach herd immunity unless we vaccinate the 12 and under crowd this will ensure 90% of all people are vaccinated. The emergency order that is in effect now is the same emergency order in effect for this scenario.
The CDS orders CAF personal to cordon off every city with a population higher than 100,000 people. No traffic is allowed out, unless they can prove every member in the car is vaccinated. Once the cordons are operational they announce a lockdown. Public health, with the support of local police and CAF personal, will go door to door vaccinate every citizen regardless of age. People that don't comply are either arrested or given a summary offence ticket. This continues until every home has had a visit.


Would the CAF comply, or would this get snuffed out at the higher levels?

You're suggesting in your scenario the CDS makes this "command decision" on his/her own?

Can we talk about something more realistic, like UFOs commanded by Dragon/Unicorn hybrid warriors that use liquid bubble gum as their main offensive wpn system?
 

Colin Parkinson

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Back in late 2020 Stanford University found that COVID-19 had spread far more widely than originally reported. In fact 50-85 times more than the confirmed number of cases. This was in the news very briefly. Stanford was rebuked for this and it became difficult to find the report and it's data online. Stanford's findings suggested the virus though highly contagious was/is far less deadly than was being reported.
A lot of people felt the virus had reached the ROW by even Sept of 2019 and that the Chinese were suppressing information on it far earlier than first realized.
 

OldSolduer

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We in Corrections have made being vaccinated mandatory. The inmates aren't being made to take it.

Some were up in arms about it because "vulnerable people" were mentioned and they automatically made the jump that we are only concerned about inmates.

I pointed out the vulnerable ones are not only inmates but some of your fellow officers.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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A lot of people felt the virus had reached the ROW by even Sept of 2019 and that the Chinese were suppressing information on it far earlier than first realized.
I am still 100% positive I got it back in January 2020,,,,never so sick in my life for 2 days. While I was lying on a mat and a pillow beside the bathtub for day one [in case i puked, knew I couldn't walk to toilet] I remember thinking if there was a magic button here that said "feel better right now but take a year off of your life" I'd have smacked it down in a micro-second. Still would just thinking about how I felt......
 

KevinB

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Sure.

How many 9-1-1 cardiac arrests, pronounced DOA at home, and therefore never transported to hospital, have actually been listed as Covid related? 🤷‍♂️


Not surprised to read that. If you don't mind me asking, by how much of a decline?



I read that total U.S. deaths in the war was 405,000. ( 291,557 in combat - 113,842 "other". )

630,813 U.S. Covid deaths as of Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 06:00 AM EDT.
If anything the news of late suggests that a lot of COVID deaths where under represented - due to poor reporting of Nursing Home or Assisted Living Facilities not reporting correctly (or at all).

As far as the decline goes - depending on who you believe it was either a 0.00036% growth - flat - or a 0.00057 Decrease.
Part of the problem is an official census is done every 10 years - and 2020 was the year -
The rest are done via spot reporting and estimations based on that, the estimations have been high or low in the past.
There was a 29.5M increase from April 1 2010 to July 1 2020.
Generally there was a 6.3% growth over the 10 years
census.gov data



I think the flat from WW2 was also that a lot of men of age where deployed outside CONUS - which of course lead to the baby boom when they returned.
 

QV

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I am still 100% positive I got it back in January 2020,,,,never so sick in my life for 2 days. While I was lying on a mat and a pillow beside the bathtub for day one [in case i puked, knew I couldn't walk to toilet] I remember thinking if there was a magic button here that said "feel better right now but take a year off of your life" I'd have smacked it down in a micro-second. Still would just thinking about how I felt......
I was in a similar boat at the same time including everyone I was immediately connected to, family, work colleagues, etc. For me it lasted about 3 weeks, pretty bad lung infection, no puking or stomach issues though.
 

lenaitch

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The covid Is the chinese flu, no big deal If you are healthy.the killer Is the vaccine,anyone that gets the vax will get really sick or die within 36 months. do your own DD

I'm willing to set the timer if you are. Seeing as none of the vaccines have been around that long, I'm betting you have no empirical basis for your position.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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I was in a similar boat at the same time including everyone I was immediately connected to, family, work colleagues, etc. For me it lasted about 3 weeks, pretty bad lung infection, no puking or stomach issues though.
Never did puke,.....just felt so horrible I figured it was going to happen. Anyway, it could explain how, months later, I spent a 12 hour dayshift in a small control room with a guy who ended up in the hospital that night for 4 days and I didn't even test positive.
 

KINGLAWRENCE

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Tomydoom
I'm not complaining about health measures and I have followed them. I don't have a problem with people's personal choice, I'm vaccinated. If the military mandates this vaccine, then there will be 10,000-15,000 members that have to make a tough decision and the leadership may not be happy with the numbers. (Maybe it is closer to 5,000 after seeing the empty positions posted in another thread).

Now to the point I was trying to make. We were testing asymptomatic people because apparently they can spread the virus. We were encouraging people to test without symptoms and if they came back positive they were grounded for the 14 days. The number of people that would not go and get tested without symptoms is going to be high. The main reason being they don't have sick days to cover them off if they come back positive.

We don't have a picture of confirmed spread. So by going by the number of confirmed cases is spreading misinformation. You are not doing it nefariously or to be misleading, but nonetheless it is misinformation IMHO.

Without the public health orders, the number of deaths would've been higher. I just don't think it would be much higher than double.

If we look at India they had a 1.3% death rate for confirmed cases and it is 0.03% if you look at the total population. I think the effect is fairly linear and consistent across the world population. I got this number from the Google tracker 426,000 deaths and 32,000,000 cases. I also believe they ran out of testing capability so the case count could be higher, but I haven't confirmed that memory yet.
look at Israel the vaccinated are getting sick and dyeing, the vaccine does not work
 
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