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Disobeying an unlawful/unethical order - Mandatory Vaccinations

LittleBlackDevil

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So you are going to coerce payment from parents to attend a public facility to which they are already under coercion to send their children?

The state mandates (starting to detest that word - nothing is given), the state requires that children be sent to school under threat of the law.

The state is, by definition, coercive.

Actually, children are not required to be sent to government schools. Homeschooling is completely legal in every province as far as I know.
 

Kirkhill

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Actually, children are not required to be sent to government schools. Homeschooling is completely legal in every province as far as I know.

Fair enough. I stand corrected. I was familiar with a time of truant officers.
 

lenaitch

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Isn't that going to be awfully expensive though, to have hundreds/thousands/hundreds of thousands of kids tested on a regular basis? School boards are always complaining about funding, I don't see how this is sustainable unless the tests are done & paid for by the families, which I'm not opposed to.
Agree. Tying up healthcare workers, who have been stretched and frayed for a year and a half, and not particularly overabundant, to administer daily tests, at every school (4844 elementary and high schools in Ontario) seems unsustainable.

*****
Paying school taxes ('educational property taxes' in Ontario), whether or not you have kids in the system, is part of contributing to a civil society, kinda like funding the military regardless of you political or ideological bent. Parents are free to home school or use private schools.
 

Kilted

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Legally I don't think they can. It would be a very interesting legal battle if they tried.

I think I know they can't, which is why I am seeing lots of releases were the "mandatory" vaccine actually means if you don't get the jab you have to be routinely tested which in my view is very different from "get the jab or we're putting you in jail or taking away your career/livelihood".
The notwithstanding clause allows the government to ignore certain parts of the Charter including "life, liberty, and security of the person." New Brunswick was talking about using it for normal vaccinations before Covid. I don't know why people keep bringing up assault, it's like any other medical procedure.
 

Eaglelord17

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The notwithstanding clause allows the government to ignore certain parts of the Charter including "life, liberty, and security of the person." New Brunswick was talking about using it for normal vaccinations before Covid. I don't know why people keep bringing up assault, it's like any other medical procedure.
Which if the person is not consenting is assault.

The fact that atrocity the notwithstanding clause (a atrocity in the fact it only exists to give the government the power to violate your rights) is the go to response whenever a government is violating a citizens rights, tells me a lot about what is proposed and how it is morally reprehensible.
 

LittleBlackDevil

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The notwithstanding clause allows the government to ignore certain parts of the Charter including "life, liberty, and security of the person." New Brunswick was talking about using it for normal vaccinations before Covid.

I think that @Eaglelord17 said it well when he said that the use of s. 33 (which is essentially an admission that "we know this violates the Charter but we're doing it anyway") says a lot about the moral reprehensibility of a proposal. It's true that s. 33 is a thing, it has a 5 year lifespan, and that it was built into the Charter to allow government to opt out of the Charter when it became inconvenient. Up until recently there had been enough respect for Charter values that it was almost never invoked, but rule by imperial fiat seems to be the trend (executive orders in the US, orders-in-council in Canada, and invocation of s. 33).

I don't know why people keep bringing up assault, it's like any other medical procedure.

It is like any other medical procedure, and the reason people keep bringing up assault is because ANY medical procedure is an assault if it happens without the patient's consent. This has always been the case and you can find court decisions of people being awarded damages for having procedures done (often while under anesthetic) when the surgeon noticed something and fixed it which was not discussed beforehand.I
 

Navy_Pete

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Next thing you know, they will want to propose that people need 'passports' to drive, practice medicine, or fly an airplane! Fascists!

Society is based on reasonably restricting freedoms for the common good, welcome to the party. Pretty basic Canadian civics 101.

You can choose not to get a vaccine, but that won't be without consequences, like limiting your options to be able to do things, and possibly where you can work. No one is pinning anyone down to vaccinate them, so give the hyperbole a rest, as it undermines your arguement. Alternately, go straight to accusing people of being Nazis; reductio ad hitlerum for the "win".

"I am hestitant to get the vaccine because .." is valid, and something that actual medical professionals can explain (ie people outside of Facebook).

'Muh Freedums" on the other hand...
 

FormerHorseGuard

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Health records, needle books, immunization records, or now the term Vax Passport have been around for ages. Some countries require visitors to get certain shots before entering their country.

see the link it listed immunizations you must have to enter some countries. https://www.who.int/ith/2016-ith-county-list.pdf

Schools have required some vaccines for decades, I can remember lining up in public school and in high school to get my needles.
I was applying for my Green Card to live and work legally in the USA and they required some vaccines but since I was Canadian the doctor figured I had gotten most of them as a Child so he was not concerned.

Under the immigration laws of the United States, a foreign national who applies for an immigrant visa abroad, or who seeks to adjust status to a permanent resident while in the United States, is required to receive vaccinations to prevent the following diseases:

  • Mumps
  • Measles
  • Rubella
  • Polio
  • Tetanus and Diphtheria Toxoids
  • Pertussis
  • Haemophilus influenzae type B
  • Hepatitis B
  • Any other vaccine-preventable diseases recommended by the Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices
So without a needle book, vaccine record, or vaccine passport, how else would you prove you had these shots before you applied for entry?
I do not think doctors are going to just take your word any more due to rise in diseases that use to be almost unheard of making a come back
Measles is making a come back in some countries , Afghanistan is 7 on the list released from CDC.

Polio cases are high also in Afghanistan.

Vaccine records are important for travel, school, and other places not just because of the issues today,
 

Kirkhill

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If you want to join the club then you follow the club's rules.
If you don't want to follow the club's rules then don't join the club.

Simple.

Just so long as somebody, including the government, doesn't say you must join the club.
Immigrants get a choice. They don't have to immigrate.
Natural citizens have a different problem.
 

mariomike

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  • So without a needle book, vaccine record, or vaccine passport, how else would you prove you had these shots before you applied for entry?
My family doctor has that.

Also, because my plan was to retire to Arizona, for good measure I got documentation from our Medical Director where I used to work. They had to keep an up to date record on Hep B, (Tetanus, Diphtheria, Pertussis), proof of immunity to Varicella TDP, flu shot, MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) anyway.

If your family doctor, or employee health unit, can't help you, try your local municipal heath unit. They may be able to.
 

CountDC

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So you are going to coerce payment from parents to attend a public facility to which they are already under coercion to send their children?

The state mandates (starting to detest that word - nothing is given), the state requires that children be sent to school under threat of the law.

The state is, by definition, coercive.

The state requires that children are schooled, not that they be sent to school. Many opt to home school the children.
 

CountDC

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So we get the vaccine to protect us and others from the virus and then are scared that those without the vaccine will give us the virus so require them to get the vaccine or be punished. hmmmm.

Personally I think let them go without and when they catch it let them treat themselves at home. Vaccine passport to get medical treatment for Covid as the vaccine doesn't stop you from getting it.
 

Navy_Pete

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Vaccine passport to get medical treatment for Covid as the vaccine doesn't stop you from getting it.
No, but it does massively decrease the rate of serious side effects, requirements for hospitalization, long term effects (like organ damage) and drops the chance of death to near zero.

Also seems to help people with 'long COVID' recover.

So aside from helping with COVID, prevents the health care system from being overrun, so doctors don't need to triage things and let people die for what would normally be recoverable issues because of lack of resources.

for ref: see story below on impact of COVID on cancer treatment;

Bigger tumours, delayed diagnoses as cancer patients struggle amid pandemic​

Doctors say there's 'no doubt' cancer patients are facing more invasive treatment​

 

kev994

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So we get the vaccine to protect us and others from the virus and then are scared that those without the vaccine will give us the virus so require them to get the vaccine or be punished. hmmmm.

Personally I think let them go without and when they catch it let them treat themselves at home. Vaccine passport to get medical treatment for Covid as the vaccine doesn't stop you from getting it.
My kids aren’t old enough to get vaccinated, so they’re not only harming themselves.
 

OldSolduer

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Personally I think let them go without and when they catch it let them treat themselves at home. Vaccine passport to get medical treatment for Covid as the vaccine doesn't stop you from getting it.

OK so if a smoker develops lung cancer do we tell them "gee you idiot that's your own fault, go home and treat yourself".
 

FJAG

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OK so if a smoker develops lung cancer do we tell them "gee you idiot that's your own fault, go home and treat yourself".
If you are as old as I am (and I'm sure you are) and grew up in a blue haze because ... Marlboro country ... then, no; but younger folks who have known for decades what this shyte will do to them .....

Smokers already pay extra insurance premiums because of their self-inflicted risks. I certainly do not advocate withholding medical treatment but I would certainly advocate for tax incentives for non smokers so that smokers pay a little more for government funded health care.

When you phrase things as "punishing offenders" you automatically raise a negative reaction. It's much better to provide "incentives" for those who comply.

🍻
 

Eaglelord17

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So let me get this straight, first we force people to be part of and pay for a healthcare system you cannot opt out of or have any other alternative to. Then we should also put all sorts of restrictions on receiving medical care because of things that could have been 'preventable' or based off your own decisions? Smoking, Alcohol, maybe not wearing a seat belt, oh eating all that junk food caused diabetes? Well that's on you. Basically everything thing you deal with can be blamed on you in some way or form.

Got the flu? Well you should have been hiding in the woods away from society. Car accident? You shouldn't have been driving, everyone knows it is a dangerous act.

Welcome to the creation of a divided society, one where certain people believe they know what is best for everyone else and if you don't comply they shall do their utmost to destroy you or ruin you.
 

Kilted

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I think that a more realistic way of addressing things like smoking is placing high taxes on cigarettes/vapes. This helps to deter smoking/vaping and helps to recover some of the health care costs. I'm sure we will see the taxes gradually increase over time. I'd love to see the legal age gradually rise as well.
 

PMedMoe

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Pretty sure tobacco is taxed high already. The way I see it, is most smokers will die earlier thus they are less of a burden on the health care system. IMO.
 
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