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CPF's badly built?

Very true.  They are already starting the process to replace the 280's and the CPF's with a SSC, they know they'll be replacing them in around 15 years or so...  It's too bad that they can't churn out one a year to keep the infrastructure active, but for now I guess we just have to live with it.
 
Why does everone keep focusing on military production with this shipbuilding issue.  The entire open water economy of Canada depends on ships, and that includes major offshore support assets (tugs and rigs), navigational support vessels (buoy tenders, survey vessels and Ice Breakers), and transportation elements (ferries).  This production and refit requirement would augment (or likely dwarf) any military production requirements, and when one considers our needs as a maritime nation, compared to the likes of the Europeans and the Asians, then it is reasonable to develop this industry.

The issue then comes to the attitude of the people of Canada and the government.  Do we foster a culture of dependence on regional development and vote buying, with successive governments stabbing the other parties in the back by ripping apart hard won nationally important procurement projects, or do we develop a culture of long term 50 year plans with attainable, sustainable objectives.  Can we produce warships and other vessels of importance to our economy and security, in batches, continually upgrading a hull design, maintaining the expertise, and the jobs while we are at it?  Absolutely.  The economic spinoffs for the C&C and weapon/sensor suites, not to mention the main machinery infrastructure are enormous.  What we need to do is stop our dependence on the federal teat.

We can't really call ourselves a maritime nation if we don't actually build the things that sail in our waters!
 
Part of the problem with shipbuilding is that it's usually quite a bit cheaper to build overseas, where labour is cheaper (amont other things).  Even with a steep import duty on ships (25 to 35 per cent -- I don't remember the exact figure) it's still hard for Canadian yards to compete on price.
 
Labour prices are one thing - the other is that the whole global market for shipbuilding has been in a glut for decades.  Every seafaring nation wants to build at home, and most subsidize if not overtly then with... dum dum da dum... naval contracts.  And here we go in a circle again.

And while the "entire open water economy of Canada" does depend on ships, most of that shipping is either provided by foreign-owned vessels or aren't the types of vessels you can use to sustain a viable industry.  Mentioned are buoy tenders, survey vessels, and ice breakers.  Well, that's pretty much the purview of the coast guard - all their ships are between 20 and 40 years old.  Besides, Coast Guard is the same case as the Navy - anything done there to prop up shipbuilding is more dependence on the "federal teat".  Not to mention that we don't have a coast guard fleet large enough to support anything, unless you want to start building disposable hulls.  As for tugs and ferries, there is no way there are enough of them bought in a year to self-support much local shipbuilding, and if there were, the expertise gained from building them wouldn't do a whit of good when it came to military hulls anyway.

So, really, when you are talking retaining enough ongoing shipbuilding expertise to make domestic military hulls possible with existing infrastructure - well, to make that viable you need to be building large, trans-oceanic vessels, and those are almost universally foreign-owned.  Little blip-on-the-map nations like Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (of GTS Katie fame) make foreign registration and ownership of vessels a snap.

So yes, it would be great to have a lucrative home market for shipbuilding.  But first we need a lucrative business in shipping to pay for it.  Then we need to jump-start the failed international shipbuilding agreement to address global over-production of hulls.  It failed in 1994, and I think I read that two or three years of recent talks were suspended last year after no agreement could be made.

Sure, I love the sound of "attainable, sustainable", yada yada, but really, there is no magic wand to wave to give us this.  The best idea I can think of is to have a regular replacement plan for military and civil-service (coast guard) fleets.  With more commitment to regular hull modernization and replacement, and (hopefully) a little expansion in overall fleet size, maybe... just maybe... we could subsidize a modest self-sustaining local shipbuilding industry.
 
Aye, I hear you loud and clear on the no magic wand. 

As for the small domestic needs, perhaps looking 5 to 50 years into our globally warmed future is in order.  We are going to need more vessels for the north, and that will necessarily mean more supply type vessels for the CG, and pre-positioned SAR assets as well.  If that passage is to open, and I am certain it will, so too will our need to deploy there.  We will need endurance of the type an aircraft can not provide.  This endurance will require support, whether refueled from AORs or CG vessels it will not matter, in order to make a difference and mean something.  That means hulls, with small overworked crews in some of the toughest seas on the planet.  We should build them now - they are coming.  The ferries we have could use with a periodic replacement too, with their subsequent sale to some other region.  Perhaps build new ones with a secondary cargo role for moving military hardware might also be considered.

What we really need is the long term vision so that this develops over 20-50 years.  Will my kids see this?  Not likely, but I sure as hell hope they still fight for it - and if there is some teat to be milked, get their fair share too - they will have my bills to pay.  Politics and nationalism/regionalism will always play a part in this.  Ontario's voters - mostly ignorant that everything they buy comes in a container - they only see the trucks on the 400 series highways - will always call for a low price offshore buy.  Why not?  Looks good on a balance sheet, and yes we can refit these to our standards later - unless you look at our history in that area also.

What we need to do is get the Canadian populace thinking of national procurement in terms of 50 year windows, not just the next federal election campaign, or when one of our pilots dies or ships breaks down... 

I'm all for keeping a hull for 30 years.  The first 3 are spent beating it into shape, the next 10 are spent working every penny out of it, two years are spent upgrading it, and the next 10 are paying for the refit, and after that it should be allowed to go gracefully.  At it's mid life, it's replacement should have been having her keel laid.  The reality is that we could do with that, if we were allowed to plan for thirty years without the politicians of the day grabbing at this 'set aside' pot of money all the time.  Short term gain for our politicos is always going to cause long term harm for the military.  What every report I've ever seen on the issue endorses is the smaller more frequent purchase plan.  That still requires long term planning from the political part, but has been done around the world before too. 

I am confident that upwards of three major yards can be sustained for domestic purposes if we work them as a national team, perhaps bite that regional bullet and declare one as our national naval yard, and another for the CG and ferries, and necessarily in partnership with international consortia.  Unfortunately, the reason no one wants our work is that our labour costs are insane when coupled with our worker dedication and their product.  We also need to get PWGSC to start working as part of the team and stop offering contracts to bidders that win on trash bids with no expertise.  World leadership in sustainable shipbuilding can be attained if we take a national approach to it.  Some things are better when controlled from the center.  The cash we use to buy these vessels offshore is lost to our economy otherwise - another point to educate our populace about.

I agree - no magic wand.  I just think we need to think ahead and keep our options open.  We need to recognize that which can be fixed and work slowly to change those things that change slowly.  Starting today.
 
A few points for everyone to ponder.

Where did you get tthe idea that workers oversea's labour is cheaper. With the exception of Korea & Japan that have huge production lines of ships being built in quantity (hence keeping prices down)  shipbuilding yards oversea's are having the same problems as in Canada and prices are also very high. Most European yards and shipbuilders are in disasterious shape and in the last decade more yards have closed than in Canada. Even in the U.S. many yards have closed in the last decade and many of those still open are turning out shoddy work.  I.E.
The new San Antonio class was years late and hundreds of millions  way over budget  had had many ,many defects.

This problem has been discussed for over fifty years and we are no closer to an answer today than we were then. We already build all our government vessels in Canada. With the exception of Subs and Carriers all Navy vessels since about 1944 have been built in Canada. All ships in the Coast Guard have been built in Canada. Many of our Tugs,Supply vessels, research vessels, fishing vessels ,oil rigs, offshore oil platforms& ferrys have been built in Canada but still we have a shipbuilding overcapicity that connot be filled by domestic orders.

Don't think that the grass is always greener overseas because its not, shipyards everywhere are hurting for orders and the product they turn out have just as many defects & teething problems if not more than Canadian Yards. If you think the CPF's have problems well i can tell you of several NATO navy's have destroyers & frigates that have problems that are many times worse than anything we have experienced in our worst nightmares.

CHEERS     
 
Good point Stoney,

For example, the Lafeyette Class that France has exported to countries like Taiwan and Saudi Arabia are well known to have major engineering problems.  Ships today are being engineered to the fullest extent of technology and often this means that there are sometimes unproven technologies incorporated into the design.  A good example of this is the decision to use a non-metal gun housing on the CPFs.  Well, I don't know if anyone else has seen it, but I know of at least one storm that saw us in heavy seas and cracked the outside of the gun housing. 

As for the massive production lines you speak of, those are mainly for the civilian sector of shipbuilding.  There are, and always will be, special design requirements needed in naval shipbuilding.  The Russians are very good at this and have maintained a strong shipbuilding industry for years, albeit on the back of supplying arms to lovely countries such as India, China, and North Korea. 

Canadian shipyards could easily retool themselves and build a military order if the demand was there.  We have seen this through history in WWII and even when the CPFs were being built.  The decision just has to be made to build whatever new ships are coming in Canada so that the various yards have ample time to re-tool and be ready.  The old laws of supply and demand dictate the domestic willingness to build ships at home.  When we don't build a new ship for 15 years and there is no demand, the shipyards move on to something else or they close.  When there is a demand created, there will be someone there to supply a product.
 
tasop_999 said:
Good point Stoney,

.  A good example of this is the decision to use a non-metal gun housing on the CPFs.  Well, I don't know if anyone else has seen it, but I know of at least one storm that saw us in heavy seas and cracked the outside of the gun housing. 

.

I take you are talking about the Mount?  or a shield? I guess fiberglass is what they used. I have seen steel and aluminum stoved in by heavy seas.
 
The gun on the CPF'S is supplied by Bofor's now BAE,  only came with one shield so the point is moot.  We didn't have a choice, not that we would haven't made the same one anyway. The steel used in the CPF's' as specified by the designer's and bid for by Canadian steel makers and initally supplied to Irving Shipbuilding was not up to the standards as laid down ,and the yard condemmed it, as unsatisfactory . Was this Irvings fault . The vessels main gear box was built in Holland ,and shipped to Irving by ship and while unloading was dropped and had to be shipped back to Holland for recertification. Was this Irvings fault. Many of the systems installed in the CPF's were from overseas suppliers and installed by subcontractors in Canada that had little or no experience in these systems. Was this Irvings fault. The learning curve from first of class HMCS Halifax, to the last Frigate built was steep, as building times improved dramatically and first of class ships have historically speaking have been lemons compared to the rest of class. The problem is, as stated previously  that we are always reinventing the wheel and this will not change under the  present procurement processes of feast or famine.

Cheers

 
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