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CPF's badly built?

IN HOC SIGNO

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jollyjacktar said:
IN HOC ah screw the other thread.  I did read the article on the JSS and it made me mad, again.  I hate to think of Irving having the contract to build these ships.  We are still suffering from the refit we just went through with those people.  And years after the previous refit at that yard we were still coming across situations where work was done incorrectly or not at all.  Yes, yes I know, QA should take some of the blame for past mistakes, but dammit it was Irving who did the work to begin with.  Every ship coming out of there recently is having to overcome all sorts of problems stemming from the refit conducted there.

The Halifax is falling apart and has had more new steel put into her than you could shake a stick at.  She is not that old for Christ's sake.  There is no way IMHO that anything JSS built by them would last as long as we will be forced to try to make and mend with, as is happening now.  The folks from the Puzzle Palace came onboard in 99 and promised 4 not 3 ships in the water by 05.  Here it is 06 and these monkeys are now saying 3 by 13. UNSAT!!!!!  I am tired of getting screwed by the Feds et al.  And I am sure I am not alone in this.

:rage:

I was talking to the P1 on my French course today and he said the very same things you are saying. In that article it also said that Victoria and St John's was vying for the contracts.
It really does take stamina to be a sailor and listen to all this doesn't it?
 
Our CPF's were poorly built, there is no way these things will last as long as the old steamers.  We should go with experience and quality, so I say build them overseas. 

The contract process is a waste of time.  Because we all know where this boats will be built, Halifax, because that is where the Navy is!  And that is all that matters!  Why would they build the ships out west in Victoria?  That is were the training sqn is, they should just close down ESQ and move all the assets out east.  And to keep on the topic of this thread, we should all wear cadpat for the trip around, that way we won't be easy targets in the Panama Canal!

 
Sub_Guy said:
Our CPF's were poorly built, there is no way these things will last as long as the old steamers.  We should go with experience and quality, so I say build them overseas. 

The contract process is a waste of time.  Because we all know where this boats will be built, Halifax, because that is where the Navy is!  And that is all that matters!  Why would they build the ships out west in Victoria?  That is were the training sqn is, they should just close down ESQ and move all the assets out east.  And to keep on the topic of this thread, we should all wear cadpat for the trip around, that way we won't be easy targets in the Panama Canal!
:rage:
THIS IS WHY WEST COASTERS CANNOT STAND EAST COASTERS!!!
I really really hope that you have your tounge firmly in your cheek if not then.....Get your head out of your a** sub guy!

Training Squadron (4 Squadron) has not been around since we retired the steamers!
Which coast was first to integrate with a US Carrier battle group, certainly not MARLANT!!!!!!!

I have to go, but I will come back to this later.

We are not kidding when we say "Prepare to enter Halifax harbour. Turn your clocks back 200 years!"
Chripes you guys tick me off!!!!
 
Sub_guy, all I can say is WTF.  Your profile shows you being in Esquimalt, yet you're bashing it all to heck.  I am ashamed to know that you are part of the fleet out here and you treat it as such.

And not build ships in Victoria?  Why don't you open your flippin' eyes next time you walk through YOUR dockyard.
 
Trust me that was all written with a tonne of sarcasm! 

I hate Halifax (yes I lived/sailed there), and in my post I was trying to capture the way your average east coast sailor thinks (most had no idea that the west has been patrolling the gulf since the first gulf war).  It bothers me that I have/had to educate my fellow SAILORS on what THE CANADIAN NAVY is doing, I mean come on here, it isn't a big navy!  Why is it that your last port visit antics make the headlines in Halifax, but any mention of the Tanker going to Timor back in 99 (confirmed in the press on saturday 18th, sailed on the 23rd Sept 99) Causes some people to scratch their heads (conversation on my QL5 course June 2000)?  Or when the Charlottetown sailed in the gulf, people out east were going on how it was the first ship to be fully intgrated into a battlegroup (Regina fully integrated with the Connie, year previous) 

-Operational navy -> East Coast
-More time at sea -> East Coast

The sea time is pretty much the same on both coasts, and we all know we have a busy navy (east and west).  Personally I don't think Victoria has a chance to build these ships but  I would LOVE to see the ships built here in MY HOUSE.  I can also produce some documentation to back up my statement taken from the PMO JSS site which discounts the Victoria shipyard, as they state that most qualified tradesmen are in short supply out here.

Navymich I hope that clears it up a bit!
 
Thanks for the clarification Sub-Guy. Just about blew a gasket there.  ;)
 
Ladies and Gentlemen, they always has been and always will be differences of opinion and net worth between the two coasts.  I have never had the pleasure of sailing with you out there on that coast, but I do hope it is better than base side.  I was there for my 3's and found it to be drowning in nit picky BS on the small stuff that is not to be found in the same quantity here on the East Coast IMHO.  I was thankfull when they changed the 5's for us to this coast and I did not have to return for the full term but just the HT/FF conversion course.  Love Vic though.
 
Sub_Guy, if you want to kick someone in the knackers for not getting the word out on what the hell you guys are doing out there you just have to look to your local Navy PAFOs on who is dropping the ball.  Out people here are active and bang the drum, as they well should.

I did however notice on Divvies out your way when I was there in 99, that you could usually spot the East Coasters vice the West Coasters.  The difference was in the amount of been there gongs between the two camps.  The East lads at that time had it all over the West lads from what I could see.  So, going on that visual clue alone could lead one to assume a lighter sailing schedule out West.

As for your ongoing tours of the Gulf, I personally would be happy to see our coast start doing trips there again.  I missed all the excitement whilst on my Tech course as I started it on 10/9 only to see my ship depart one month later. Always a bridesmaid never a bride.
 
99 Divies for sure you would see more medals on the east coasters with the NATO's (missions that the nato fleets took on like former yugo) and such, there are no medals given for wesploys and unitas trips...  More medals doesn't mean a heavier sailing schedule.

Sure I may sound like a typical west coast sailor, but both myself and wife (over 10 years out east) have done both coasts and the difference in my eyes between the two coasts is that the submariners have a very established division out there, as opposed to here where we are the new kids on the block.  The navy out east seems old, resists change, and intoxicated.

Also doing your 3's and getting picked up for little crap, thats nothing, you are on your 3's we have gotten too soft, and brand new OS's are coming out of basic looking good only to look like crap 3 weeks later, you need discipline on 3's courses.

Our trips to the gulf started well before some crazy dick flew a plane into a building, they started with the Huron back in 91 and they have been going on ever since. 

It really doesn't matter, but with a little research and looking around you can find out who sails the most (it really doesn't matter, and there won't be a glaring difference between the two)  but the attitude out east probably will never change, and the attitude out west never will either.

We are younger, more adapt to change, and sober...............


Oh and I have been contact with my PAFO
 
I remember all the hoopla (CBC style) when Charlottetown was "integrated" with a US Carrier Battlegroup. We had to laugh out here because: (standby for long article)

SMALL NAVIES AND NETWORK-CENTRIC WARFARE
Is There a Role?

Paul T. Mitchell

Naval War College Review, Spring 2003, Vol. LVI, No. 2

CANADIAN SHIPS IN AMERICAN CVBGS

One can get a sense of the challenges facing coalition naval network-centric warfare by examining the integration of Canadian warships into U.S. aircraft carrier battle groups. In some respects, this case represents the crucible, for any difficulties faced by Canadians are likely to be considerably more intense for navies outside the bonds of trust that have traditionally connected the Canadian and American navies.

FIGURE 2
MARPAC Ships
1995, HMCS Calgary 50 days as independent ship in MIF
1997, HMCS Regina Surface action group
1998, HMCS Ottawa Abraham Lincoln BG, fully integrated
1999, HMCS Regina Constellation BG, replaced U.S. ship
2000, HMCS Calgary Surface action group, PacMEF
2001, HMCS Winnipeg
Constellation BG, on-scene commander 17–24 July 02, TACON of all BG units
2001, HMCS Vancouver John C. Stennis BG

MARLANT Ships
2001, HMCS Charlottetown LANTMEF, joined Harry S. Truman BG in Med.

MIF    Maritime Interdiction Force BG    battle group PacMEF    Pacific Marine Expeditionary Force TACON    tactical control LANTMEF    Atlantic Marine Expeditionary Force

The Canadian navy began arranging to insert its ships into carrier battle groups in the late 1990s in an effort to improve interoperability with the U.S. Navy (see figure 2). Initially, only West Coast ships, operating out of Canadian Forces Base Esquimalt, in British Columbia, were involved. The West Coast fleet had fewer recurring operational commitments (such as the NATO Standing Naval Force Atlantic) than the East Coast command in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Further, the West Coast fleet had a long tradition of operating with the U.S. Navy and were therefore more doctrinally compatible with it than the Halifax squadrons, which had been primarily influenced by their long history of NATO operations.

Since their introduction, the integration of Canadian ships into CVBGs has been an evolutionary process. Canadian ships began as members of the Maritime Interdiction Force in the Persian Gulf, later gradually moving into actual battle groups as mutual familiarity improved. What started first as an operational initiative eventually gained an explicit strategic stature (in the Canadian context), when it became Department of National Defence policy to improve interoperability with its allies, particularly the United States. The department now seeks to develop and maintain “tactically self-sufficient units,” capable of substantial military contributions while asserting their Canadian identity. (A ground-forces equivalent would be the role Canadian Coyote LAV IIIs, armored reconnaissance vehicles, played in Bosnia, Kosovo, and now Afghanistan.) Commodore Dan McNeil, Director for Force Planning and Programme Co-ordination, has recently remarked, “We will never be able to field strategic level forces. . . . We’re not ever going to be in that game. We’re going to be fielding tactical units. [However,] if you properly use tactical units, you can achieve strategic effect. That is what we are trying to do.”53

A revolutionary aspect of these carrier battlegroup operations has been the fact that individual Canadian ships have often replaced American ones. This arrangement has been of mutual benefit; the United States has been able to address its shortages of frigates and destroyers, and Canada has been afforded professional opportunities that it could not hope to obtain on its own. These opportunities include not only extended operations in groups larger than those the Canadian navy typically sends to sea but also exposure to assets not in the Canadian order of battle—carriers, cruisers, and nuclear submarines.

Canada has thus become a member of a select club, enjoying special access to the command and control concepts developed by the U.S. Navy as it travels down the road of network-centric warfare, as well as to military support not normally offered to allies. Finally, CVBG operations enable the Canadian navy to develop professional skills in the areas of littoral and interdiction operations, for which there is no opportunity in North American waters.

At the same time, such deployments stress the mutual dependencies and vulnerabilities that are central to every good coalition operation. For the Canadian navy, given the relative scarcity of Canadian ships (Canada has only twelve Halifax-class frigates), each unit deployed has value out of proportion to its ultimate contribution to a carrier battle group. Obviously, sending such ships into the Persian and Arabian Gulfs, as is typical, is far more dangerous than assigning them to the standard fisheries patrols in Canadian waters they would most likely be conducting otherwise. Similarly, by replacing an American ship with a Canadian one, rather than simply augmenting the group, the U.S. Navy is placing considerable trust in the professionalism and competence of Canadian crews; as one battle group commander has declared, “We need to be ready to go on game day—and when we play, every game is game day.”54 Accepting a Canadian ship into a battle group also constitutes a commitment to look after that ship.

To ensure that they are not liabilities for their new battle groups, Canadian ships participate in the same exercises and workups that all American ships do. Similarly, they carry the latest revisions of the Global Command and Control System–Maritime (GCCS-M) and conduct training to ensure that they can share and use the information and imagery distributed on that system. The Canadian navy has been increasingly challenged by such upgrades, however, due to the legacy systems on board its ships. The CCS330 system that controls the ship displays in the operations rooms of the Halifax frigates and Iroquois-class destroyers is a closed-architecture system based on a unique operating system and military-specific software and hardware. State of the art ten years ago, it is becoming increasingly a maintenance problem and, even more seriously, has a very limited capacity for integration with new systems. New capabilities, like GCCS-M, must be added to Canadian ships on a stand-alone basis. Canadian display terminals, as a result, cannot send or receive operational messages; tactical networking requires separate consoles; and the information provided by systems like GCCS-M and the Canadian equivalent of the SIPRNET, known as MCOIN III, become effectively “stovepiped.” The result is a cluttered operations room where decision makers must consult a number of systems in order to gather all the information necessary to perform their jobs—obviously not the most efficient arrangement in the heat of battle.55

Interestingly, the Canadian navy’s effort to remain abreast of the fast-moving electronics revolution in command and control technologies is not being driven by American requirements. The United States is pleased that Canada strives to prevent gaps in capabilities. However, Canadian naval officers stress, it is the long history of naval cooperation and overall familiarity between the navies that has facilitated these exchanges, not the technical “kit” installed aboard Canadian ships.56 The difficulties Canadian ships typically encounter in integrating themselves into American battle groups largely arise from the issue of accessibility.
 
I sailed in 1 Squadron in the early 90's as a PAT. I was waiting for my QL3. I remember walking on the bulkhead during a storm and I remember getting real real drunk in San Diego. Funny thing is I can remember doing the same things on the east coast. The only difference is that I sailed east for 13 years while I was only west for a year. People out east just love to ping off of the west coasters for two big reasons. They have beautifull weather most of the year, and you move up the chain of command faster(promotions). You sail thru a storm, you sail thru a storm, it sucks no matter what coast. Especially sea state 6 or higher. Personnally I didn't like Vicoria all that much, but then I am a maritimer and my family is all in NB/NS. That is just me though. I did have some fun while I was there so it wasn't all bad.
Well that was my spiel.
Thanks, Marc  :cdn:
 
gravyboat said:
FSTO
Just to clarify; I was on Charlottetown in 2000, when we first joined the HSTBG, we deployed in 01/2001 as a member of said CVNBG with other USN units.  We remained with HST until her departure and Connie arrived to take up the duties.

Agreed, but there was much hoopla made about your trip in the media as being the first to do so.  That wasn't the case.  I was out east and heard it all.  Yes it was the Charlottetown correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you guys sail for the Gulf Jan 01 - Jun 01, then right back at it after 9/11 sometime late Sept 01....

http://www.nosi.org/archivejuly2000  (search for HMCS)

Check out the December 27 news release.  How come the Americans can get it right but our own are completely lost

Canadian Navy HMCS Charlottetown will join the Truman battle group for its 6 month deployment, the 3rd time a Canadian vessel has served as an integrated member of a US battle group
 
M Feetham said:
...and you move up the chain of command faster(promotions).

This is now, at least, quantifiably incorrect, if we go by the sonar world.  You have to be a real, real shitstorm not to pick up your 3 year killicks in Halifax, whereas the number of advances over the past year on the West Coast number two to my memory, and they were by a whole four months.  The merit list number two sonar killick in Halifax finished his QL3 in 2004(!!!).  I hate getting personal but man, there is no conceiveable reason for that to have happened.  They are also jumping the QL5 queue in a big way, and it really shows once they get on course.  Something that should be a consolidation of skills and knowledge learned post QL4 OJT turns into a really painful grind.

And, I have so many more sea miles, so many more ports, so much more live in contact time, compared to probably any of my direct peers in Halifax it makes me a little embarrassed.

But a friend and I went over it a little while back and came to the conclusion that I, as a west coaster, will not be a Master before 9 years in no matter what.  Almost makes me wish I went east (NOTE FOR CAREER SHOP - I'M JUST KIDDING).

As for the ships, yes, the Halifax-based CPFs seem to be in awfully rough shape.  I suspect it has something to do with winter.
 
gravyboat said:
Alright this thread is sliding down the slippery slope.  Each coast send one rep to whip it out and get measured, that should settle the argument.   :dontpanic:

Since I'm not on the CPF's, can I be an impartial judge and measure?  >:D (says the sailor as she smiles sweet and innocently  ;) )
 
Career movement is faster out east in the 0299 world too, they are practically going through their entire merit list (LS to MS)  But anyone who has their shit together should be wearing a leaf before the 10 year mark.  I know there are exceptions, like bad timings when it comes to postings, but there are only so many excuses

I'd like to volunteer for the whip out, but it always seems like I am sporting the "its cold" look  ;)


 
I'm only talking from what I know. That is the NCIOP world. From personnal experience, two of the guys who were on my QL5 course in '95 received their "leaf" less than six months after finishing the course. One of them was a P2 less than 2 years later and has been a P1 for about five years now. You don't even get your file sent for merit listing until after you have a full year in rank. A couple of my buddies went West because they were not getting promoted fast enough out east. One guy went from killick to P2 in less than 5 years. Another buddy of mine just left the recruit school and expects to pick up his P2's in less than a year. Most of the guys that picked up their leafs around the same time I did, still do not have their 6A's yet while guys that were on their 5's have been P1's for years. From what I've seen, West coasters in the NCI world definitley move up faster. Sorry but I really can't speak for the other trades. That's my spiel, I eagerly await comments. I respecfully decline the whip it out contest, as I too suffer from the It's cold syndrome. Have a good one everyone.
Cheers Marc :cdn:
 
Sub Guy, I agree there is a distinct lack of discipline amongst the newer members.  But this has been going on for over ten years now.  I noticed the change around 91/92 with the new kids who were coming in from Battle School following St-Jean/Cornwallis.  Back then I was in the Security Branch and was in a position to have lots of contact with the new kids when they screwed up.

Yes, yes there should be discipline on the career courses.  And there is, on both coasts from my personal experience.  I am talking about outside of the school, there was more BS and petty minded nit pickers to my memory.  But then maybe I am just a slack bastard eh?

I agree there are those who wish to hit the barley too hard at times too.  Thankfully they are a minority.  I personally don't drink at sea as I want to keep my head on straight if the shit hits the fan.  We have had however our friends from your coast with us for the past three sails and well they were not all staying away from the bar either.  I am sure you have your chronics on that coast.

Lastly, I would love you guys to stop hogging all the trips to the Gulf.  I want some of the action too.
 
I have seen US TV shows that mentioned that the Canadian ships were the only one allowed to fully integrate with the US navy battle groups.

Regarding construction issues, my friend and I were on course in Kingston and wandered through the waterfront to find some parts of the 47’ lifeboats lying around, spoke to the yard manger, apparently they had been sub-contracted by SNC-Lavlin to build self-righting lifeboats for us following the US 47’ design, the contractor had never built a boat before and was using improper tools and contaminated areas for welding. After they built 2 boats, the contract was cancelled and the remaining 7 were built at Nanaimo Shipyards. The 2 boats had to be extensively re-welded.

The same thing happened back in the 80’s when we were getting our 70’ Point class built, the first two vessel also required extensive re-welding and the remaining vessels were cancelled.

Our two 500 class cutters suffered from serious top hamper issues and needed significant modification, partly the fault of the shipyard using the wrong materials and partly the fault of the Coast Guard trying to build a Uber-palace on a small hull.

The legacy of the fast cats out here is that we have an excellent aluminum small boat industry. The yards out here also have an excellent rep for doing repairs, but will need some new builds so they can re-invest in Capital upgrades. 
 
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