CP-140 Aurora

[McG]

Is this the project that has been stopped:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111835.0/all.html

 

[PPCLI Guy]

They are supporting Arctic Ram in Nunavut right now.  After the company jump onto Barrow Lake this morning, we lost comms - they were able to tell us that all 74 jumpers were moving, and hence no significant casualties.

 

[dimsum]

Is this the project that has been stopped:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111835.0/all.html

I thought that was more for a King Air equivalent, sort of like what PAL does on the coasts?

 

[The Bread Guy]

I thought that was more for a King Air equivalent, sort of like what PAL does on the coasts?

Don't know what PAL does on the coasts, but I thought King Air scale, too - something along these lines.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Lt.-Gen. Blondin Jan. 2013--last bit:

Mark
Ottawa

I know I am just an oar-puller in the big scheme of things, but IMO you don't base how you do business on "what ifs" and "there may be's".  What if China might start equipping its forces in 30 years with light sabers.  There might be a chance that Comd CA will want to equip our forces with light sabers as well.

Also, basing a plan for the way ahead on things that don't exist now tells me you'd need to have a good backup plan, which to me is a replacement for the Aurora.  We've shown how well we replace fleets.

 

[MarkOttawa]

See here for PAL (for DFO) and Transport Canada (for Environment Canada) performing civilian maritime air patrol:

Spill Prevention: National Aerial Surveillance Program
...
Regular aerial surveillance flights have contributed significantly to the decrease in oil discharges, as ships are increasingly aware that their illicit polluting activities can be detected.  The NASP aerial surveillance fleet today consists of three recently modernized aircraft that are strategically placed across the Country. These aircraft are the primary means of monitoring shipping activities and detecting illegal discharges in all waters under Canadian jurisdiction. Two TC owned and operated Dash-8 aircraft are located in Moncton, NB and Vancouver, BC.  There is also one TC owned and operated Dash-7, which is primarily located in Ottawa, ON but is also collocated to Iqaluit, NU for the Arctic-shipping season.

There are also other aircraft contracted by other Government Departments used to supplement the NASP. Through an agreement with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, TC uses Provincial Airlines Limited (PAL) aircraft for pollution patrols in waters off Newfoundland and Labrador, on an as required basis...
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/oep-ers-nasp-2195.htm

Mark
Ottawa

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Ask a submariner, the one thing they are afraid of is the sound of a P-3 buzzing around.

Umm..no. If we're afraid of anything like that, it's a Sea Thing losing power while they're dropping something off or picking something up over us. The only other thing I can think of is being rammed by a skimmer during an attack.

Submariners are unlikely to know if there's an MPA around unless it's radiating and they're at PD.

What an MPA can do is an awful lot of SOVPAT over a very large area in a short time. I think we're going to miss all the aircraft that aren't being upgraded before very long.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

WhatOne of the many things an MPA can do is an awful lot of SOVPAT over a very large area in a short time.

FTFY 

 

[Sub_Guy]

Umm..no.
Submariners are unlikely to know if there's an MPA around unless it's radiating and they're at PD.

From my time on the boats, while short, and my time tracking boats, and from talking to other dolphin wearers, the MPA is one thing that is hard to shake.  I have yet to lose any of our SSK's, mind you that's active tracking, and a switched on sonar op will (should) not miss the sound of a P-3 buzzing around the roof. 

 

[Baz]

Is it correct to say "the one thing they are afraid of is the sound of a P-3 buzzing around?"  Isn't the best way to hunt a submarine with your own submarine.

 

[Sub_Guy]

True that!

 

[ATCO]

The RCAF kept the T-33 Silver Star (T-Bird) for 50 years so...  ;D

 

[WingsofFury]

Re:  using P-3s for Army support, we already did with Auroras in EX Maple Resolve a few years ago.  I'll assume they still get used on large-scale EX like that.

Aurora's have been involved with EX Maple Flag for quite a few years now.

I like the Aurora, and the crews that fly them have always played an important role in sharp end of the spear operations both at home and abroad.  Sadly, jets are what people want to talk about these days and Aurora crews always take a seat in the shadows for that. 

Canada's best kept secret...I possibly think so.

 

[blacktriangle]

Fighters and LRP assets both contribute to domestic security, and are both required to enforce our sovereignty. In my mind, these should be core capabilities that we never compromise on. Even if the CAF were never to deploy overseas again, we should still be maintaining a high state of readiness with these kinds of forces.

Sadly, no one cares.

 

[WingsofFury]

Fighters and LRP assets both contribute to domestic security, and are both required to enforce our sovereignty. In my mind, these should be core capabilities that we never compromise on. Even if the CAF were never to deploy overseas again, we should still be maintaining a high state of readiness with these kinds of forces.

Sadly, no one cares.

Couldn't agree more.

I'm just tired of the Forces in general being the department that budgets are balanced on...gets to the point where I no longer have any idea who to vote for.

Sincerely,

A Civvy who cares.

 

[PuckChaser]

Couldn't agree more.

I'm just tired of the Forces in general being the department that budgets are balanced on...gets to the point where I no longer have any idea who to vote for.

Sincerely,

A Civvy who cares.

I'm just impressed we didn't take another budget hit this year, other than some magic deferred dollars on capital projects we know will be 5 years down the road anyways.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Couldn't agree more.

I'm just tired of the Forces in general being the department that budgets are balanced on...gets to the point where I no longer have any idea who to vote for.

Sincerely,

A Civvy who cares.

It was ever thus. I served in the deep "decades of darkness," even when economic times were good everything, except maybe symphony halls and ballet companies, were higher up the government lists that we, the Canadian Armed Forces, were. In the 1990s Prime Minister Jean Chrétien and Finance Minister Paul Martin explicitly and publicly (and, to their credit, openly and honestly) singled us out for the "hit." There was even a CANFORGEN about it! "Everyone," it said, "including the CF, has to fight the 'war on the deficit.' Be patient, better days will come." 'Better days,' in budget terms, did come ... because we deployed into harm's way, again. But some of the promises: new fighters, new ships, new this, that and the other are still on the drawing boards, ten years after the government of that day (a Liberal one) promised them.

It's important to understand that the military, the defence of the realm as one might say, is usually a low priority for "ordinary Canadians" and governments ~ and all political parties ~ take careful note of what people want ... and don't want.

 

[McG]

It is on again.

$35M military plane upgrades highlight Canada's procurement delays
Upgrade program for CP-140 Aurora aircraft to cost nearly $35M, government estimates
James Cudmore, CBC News
17 February 2014

In what amounts to another tacit admission that Canada's military is somehow structurally unable to swiftly procure the gear it needs, the Conservative government has quietly announced it's restarting a twice-cancelled plan to extend the life of the CP-140 Aurora maritime patrol aircraft.

The news arrived last week in the tabling in Parliament of supplementary estimates.

The estimates are a request for approval of additional government spending, in this case nearly $35 million "to support projects that will help extend the life of 14 CP-140 Aurora long-range patrol aircraft."

The military has undertaken a series of refits and modernizations of its 18 aircraft Aurora fleet, beginning in 1998.

The Aurora long-range patrol aircraft entered service in Canada in 1981. The 33-year-old fleet is used to survey and monitor Canada's maritime approaches and to participate in the hunt against foreign submarines. But the planes are also useful to assist in search and rescue.

More recently upgraded variants of the planes have been used by Canada to create maps of the ground in Afghanistan, as well as provide surveillance and targeting information to fighter jets during the attack on Libya.

The military's upgrade program has cost roughly $1.7 billion since 1998 and has included scores of different projects, from upgraded sensors and surveillance gear, to new structures to support aging wings.

In 2007, the military decided to restructure its upgrade program and only completely modernize 10 of the 18 aircraft, while it started looking for a replacement.

The cancellation of the modernization program was, at the time, a big deal.

That decision happened at about the same time Canada began exploring the purchase of large, armed, unmanned aerial vehicles — drones — to patrol and survey both at home and overseas.  The military even created a program to purchase UAVs that it called JUSTAS —  the Joint Uninhabited Surveillance and Target Acquisition System.

But that program, despite at least seven years of Canadian efforts and massive advances in the use of UAV technology by allies like the United States, has yet to yield a purchase.

The proposed fleet of drones would inevitably have taken some pressure off of the Auroras, as would have the Conservative government's 2007 plan to purchase a new aircraft to replace the Aurora: the so-called Canadian Multi-mission Aircraft (CMA) also featured in the government's 2008 Canada First Defence Strategy, with an initial operating capability of 2017.

But that project has faltered as well, and like the JUSTAS program, and the program to buy new search planes, and the one to replace the CF-18 Hornet fighter jets, there's no telling when the military might actually get close to buying a new aircraft.

In the case of the drones and the multi-mission aircraft, a lack of progress had direct implications for the future of the Aurora fleet.

Military briefing notes obtained by CBC News under access to information laws indicate the Defence Department had begun to reckon with its lack of substantive progress back in 2011, when it came back around to the idea of increasing the size of the fully modernized Aurora fleet from 10 to 18, as opposed to "aggressively pursuing the procurement" of drones and replacement patrol aircraft.

The documents show the decision to cancel the Aurora Capability Extension program, as that plan was called, was made in September 2011 after a meeting between the then chief of the air staff, Lt.-Gen. André Deschamps, and the vice-chief of the defence staff, Vice-Admiral Bruce Donaldson.

"It was decided there was no longer enough time to implement the ACE proposal, and that the Air Force needed to re-focus its efforts on finding an appropriate replacement capability," the briefing note says.

But it's not clear that re-focusing of Air Force efforts actually occurred.

The briefing notes suggest just a few months later, the Aurora Capability Extension was back on the table, winding its way through meetings of senior generals and into a so-called Capability-Based Planning assessment.

"[The Aurora fleet] remains highly relevant to maritime surface surveillance and with an appropriate sensor suite it will be highly useful as an over-land [Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance] platform," that assessment concluded.

In November 2012, the military tried to make its case to then Defence Minister Peter MacKay in an "options assessment," and then again in a "decision brief."

Those document suggested without more of the fully modernized Auroras, the military was at risk of failing to meet the duties set out for it in the government's 2008 defence strategy.

Of course, that strategy had called for the military to acquire new capabilities such as drones and an Aurora replacement aircraft by 2017. The briefing notes suggest the earliest date that now might happen is 2020, and some Auroras could still be flying in 2030 — almost 50 years after they were introduced into the Canadian fleet.

Keeping the Auroras flying that long would require a large fleet of upgraded planes. Last week's estimates suggest the government is willing to go at least partway there, offering upgrades to four more Auroras, bringing the size of the modernized fleet to 14.

It's not entirely clear what the upgrades mean for the government's 2008 promise to equip the Canadian Forces with new patrol aircraft or drones, but it almost certainly means both programs are delayed.

That question was put to the office of Defence Minister Rob Nicholson. His press secretary, Johanna Quinney, responded by email: "The RCAF has recommended that we modernize the Aurora.

"We are committed to maintaining our maritime surveillance capability and these upgrades will allow us to continue this role.

"The augmentation of the Aurora fleet will extend the lifespan of these aircrafts to provide service at the best value for taxpayers."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/35m-military-plane-upgrades-highlight-canada-s-procurement-delays-1.2539886

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Meanwhile a box containing a playstation, controller and duct tape shows up at the Squadron as part of the "upgrade"

 

[PuckChaser]

Meanwhile a box containing a playstation, controller and duct tape shows up at the Squadron as part of the "upgrade"

Well, $10 million of that number has to go to keep the project office running smoothly, right? Right?