Cornwallis Vs. St Jean

[Bzzliteyr]

17th.. just this past winter, during my 6A (DP3).. I had someone hacking on my nicely formed tuque.. joking at how "new" I was.. I told him it was my tuque from when I joined, he wouldn't believe me until I flipped it inside out and showed him [XXXXX,last 3 of SIN, 2PL]... still in there from way back in 93...

 

[Centurian1985]

TCBF, I would be curious if you were one of our tormentors from the 1985 Cornwallis era! Ah, the wife tells me suppers on! Back in a few minutes to finish this thought...

 

[Centurian1985]

Where was I? Oh yes...

The problem with our system these days is that the training istandard is far too low.  Work in foreign environments is hard on both the body and the mind, and the bad guys dont stop shooting just beacuse you wave a red card and tell the platoon sergeant you need a 'time out'.  Some people cant hack it and it should be in training that these oldiers are weeded out, not in the field.  This is part of why the rate of mental exhaustion for soldiers returning from overseas is so high.  The other reason is that they are sent to do jobs for which they have not received the proper training, and are forced to learn OJT what the job is and what mistakes not to make. 

(One of my pet peeves is seeing officers leading reserve or regular units in pepperpot actions across an open field.  Are you serious? They think we're still plugging the Fulda gap with Canandian cannon fodder. We've been working in BUA's since 1974!  Fire and movement teams from cover to cover, not in a single line across open fields! Sheesh!).

The same concept applies to some of the special jobs that some CF members volunteer for.  If you dont pass, you dont pass.  They will let you know if you should try again.  If they suggest you try another occupation, its because you are not suited for the volunteer work. 

 

[Patrolman]

I did not do Cornwallis or St. Jean. I did my basic combined with my TQ3 in Meaford in 1997. My course as well as the one after mine was an experimental thing for the Infantry. I think it was an excellent idea. I had all infantry instructors from day one. The instructors were all from the Cornwallis generation so things were run much like Cornwallis.
We wore coveralls every evening after supper, waxed floors evert evening. The pop machine was just outside the fire doors on our floor but we were not allowed to touch it for 12 weeks. No beatings, but lots of airborne push-ups and stress posistions. No civies except for church parade, no leaving your wing at all unless you smoked. It is amazing how many people become church goers or smokers just to get away from the routine for a short while.
Sorry if my post was a bit off topic. As for the original question. Based on what I know about both training facilities(second hand) Cornwallis definately turned out a better recruit.

 

[aesop081]

I did not do Cornwallis or St. Jean. I did my basic combined with my TQ3 in Meaford in 1997. My course as well as the one after mine was an experimental thing for the Infantry. I think it was an excellent idea. I had all infantry instructors from day one.

Thats the way it was done when my father joined R22R in 1964.  Funny how the more things change they always seem to come full circle eventualy

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Bzzliteyr

HA HA HA.  Thats TFF.  the good 'ol days eh?  I remember the RFMs that were re-coursed to our Pltn...needle and thread at the ready.

Ok, got to go.  CTV is "reporting" that Pte Costall was a FF-cas.

Christ.  Let the man RIP.

:threat: :threat: :threat:

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Centurion,

Agreed on lots (ok all) your points.  The "red card" one is my point I hopefully make here in this post.

Whatever happened to..."train the way you fight...fight the way you train".  That was so simple...it worked.  Alas, probably why it was lost along the way.  "IT MADE SENSE".

WRT to these "stress cards"...unless the En is going to drop them on our troops before H-Hour...get ride of em.  Period.  Regardless of your DEU.  If I am on a CPF...can I pull it out during "bong bong's"....or....if a aircraft has a emerg in flight...can I tell the AC..."sorry sir...I am on a time out..."....or if you are in the crap with your "army unit"  can you look at Sgt Smith and say "not now Sarge...wait...here is my card...".  BS.  TRAIN THE WAY YOU FIGHT...FIGHT THE WAY YOU TRAIN. 

Just my limited experience thoughts...BUT I have lots of "why we do it this way" stuff from my old man who flew ASW and SAR for years...some of it over the territory of our old "enemy" and hunting their sub-surface best...the lesson is the same regardless of what color of your beret/wedge/forge cap/whatever.  Like the old man said..."the only rules you are gonna have to follow in combat are the ones offered by your enemy...and he knows you doctrine."

I remember reading in "Sentinel" ( wasn't that what it was called) prior to the Maple Leaf days, about "Danger Close Fire" days in Pet where Cmbt Arms soldiers were exposed to...within safe distances and with OHP...live arty.  "Train the way you f..."

If I can, I would liken building a soldier to building a house.  Ya gotta start with a strong foundation.  I can't testify that the "new" way is not the case, but I can say that Corn-holis was strong one.  BUT...maybe..'cause of the "Cold War" and the DS we had...and where they knew they MIGHT be sending us...it was different.  I know the best instr's we had, from a "recruit" perspective...was our Cmbt Arms guys.  They were the ones that came in on the weekends and told the guys going Cmbt Arms why we needed to have our **** together.  If not for them...well...enough said.  Not to knock the other staff....they were good too.  But the Cmbt Arms ones were the "I want to be like him" figures...atleast in my squad. 

Training standards to low?  Agreed!  But...does that include the "sick lame and lazy" in the CF that are Jnr NCO's, Snr NCOs, WOs and of the Commissioned variety?  I would suggest that the SL & L exist in ALL branches...in all ranks.  And the CF has allowed, willingly, knowingly...or not...for it to get this way.  Who else can "we" blame? 

These types, unfortunately, influence, willingly or not, the new troops coming in.  I remember hearing from a very good Snr NCO when I was a Cpl "if you teach a soldier the right way to do something, they will remember that if you were effective."  I am willing to bet that the same can be said of teaching something the WRONG way to our soldiers.  First impressions are lasting ones, after all.

I agree, to a point, that some of the "battle weary" troops coming home "may" be more battle weary than the more rigourously trained ones.  I do, however, remember sitting in my broom closet (AA-11 in Gtown) in '99 talking to a Reg Frce Fd Enger Snr NCO who was going on his 4th tour in as many years...and maybe that had something to do with his mental exhaustion.  Now, I am not an expert...so...please educate me if I am not in my lane here...BUT didn't that whole thing start with FRP? 

I am standing behind the Figure 12, so fire away all!  We'll count the "shots on target" later...

:soldier:

 

[Jungle]

I don't know where this comes from, but the rumour comes back every once in a while: there are NO stress or time-out cards used in any part of Basic Trg.

Stop spreading rumours. Stay within your lanes.

People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do.
~ Lewis Cass ~

 

[ArmyRick]

The stress or time out card is a military urban legend. It has vener existed. I am very much involved in our trg system (I teach DP1 INF Reg at the moment) and I frequently talked to my students about their St Jean issues. Now some of the real problems I have had with old St jean is...
(1) Having to do a CF98 in December '05 for an injury that took place at St jean in garrison in Sept '05 and its not like the soldier left immediately after his injury, he didn't graduate basic for another month. Thats alot of phone calls and talking in french (which i aint so good at).
(2) A soldier never being taught correct C7 drills and then we showd him what he was doing wrong. He told us he had a french weapons instructor in St Jean who just got frustrated when ever he asked for help (apparently their was language issues between the two of them). This soldier by the way was not a f*cking retard, he was an ex-service member from a ways back getting back in and he was fairly switched on.
(3) A soldier loses kit in Farnham and three weeks later in meaford he told us that his staff said "Meaford will deal with your lost and damage report" WTF? Where was the bloody leadership on that?

I am not saying that St Jean does not have good leaders and instructors, they do. I am saying I have witnessed several incidents wich make me suspicious as to how some NCOs or officers at CFLRS conduct business. The above was only the tip of the ice berg.

 

[ccdec]

Ah...........Cornwallis 1977.  Can I compare them? No.... All I can say is that it was quite an experience, and, we were never physically abused but did learn alot of new words which I can't repeat here.  www.cornwallismuseum.ca is a pretty good site if you want to go through memory lane.

 

[Patrolman]

That's the way it was done when my father joined R22R in 1964.  Funny how the more things change they always seem to come full circle eventually

You are right. What I should have said was my course was an experiment to see if they wanted to re-introduce this training method so as to avoid sending infantry soldiers to St. Jean to be trained by different trades. I should mention the RCR,PPCLI,and the R22R all ran two of the courses in the fall of 97/spring of 98. Talk you any unit who received soldiers from these courses and you will probably hear that we were at a higher standard than those who came from St.Jean.

 

[Centurian1985]

Sorry to disagree with you but the 'card' system actually was used during a brief period (I wish I could back this up more, I knew one of the NCO's involved with the process, he used to live in Kingston but I dont have a number for him anymore), and yes it was removed and is no longer used anywhere that I know of.  However, the term has now become a symbol of other measures in the system so that people say 'red card' dont actually mean a physical 'red card' but rather an action equivalent to a red card. (i.e. complaints about being yelled at unneccesary). 

Advantages of current system: removes threats of physical assault by instructors and removes punitive physical exercise for trivial misdemeaners.  BTW, in ref to a previous comment, the reason we put up with all the verbal and physical abuse back in the Cornwallis days was because we REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted to join and were willing to put up with anything to get in (to paraphrase an old Monty Python joke - why do you put up with it? to prove I'm serious about joining up!). 

Reference the multiple tours, you are right that is a valid case of exhaustion, apologies for missing I missed that one.  As far as I know that was a serious problem from 1993 to 1998; are people still getting deployed without adequate rest time between tours?

 

[Deleted member 6930]

You know ... people tend to think that "the way they did it" was the toughest way and the only way and the best that "it" can be done.

This is not only true case for the military. When I earned my Amateur Radio License in the early 90's... I was reminded by a "friend" that I wasn't a real amateur radio operator because I didn't have to write the same test that he did. His was "way tougher than mine".

When I was 13 years old I joined the army cadets. An older guy (not sure of his age... at 13 ... everyone older than you is old) pointed out that when he was a cadet they did more PT, and were shouted at a lot more than I was.

My point is that I'm sure that St Jean was just as "tough" on the new recruits as was Cornwallis. It may have been different, but may have been just as tough.

There are no red stress cards you can pull out and show to staff if your "feelings" get hurt. Nobody complaine about getting yelled at...If we were yelled at ... we deserved it.
There was lots of PT in the form of push-ups, sprints, rucksac marches, crunches, etc everyday (well ... except the rucksac marches... they wear about every 4 days after the first 3 weeks were complet).
We had to sew labels on our uniform too, just like the guys at Cornwallis, we had to wear coverall or PT gear after hours (I considered these civie clothes), we had late hours and early mornings doing station jobs. Teamwork was strongly encouraged (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) (take a p in the toilet that your buddy just cleaned for inspection and you will find out how teamwork works) Just like Cornwallis.

I just didn't think it was all that tough. But then again, maybe I'm come form a different era. I had to chop wood for heat as a young' un'. Different time.

I know some of the younger guys had a real hard time of it. Some of them breezed through.

The only ones that Pi$$ed me off were the folks that couldn't or wouldn't even try ... and they were pushed though. (We suspected it was to meet some sort of quota system) Now, I'm not sure if there is a quota system in place or not, but, if every time there is a rucksac march, you are sick or can't complete it... the military is not for you. If you cannot get your uniform on correctly, the military is not for you, If you can't execute proper drill even after you "passed" your second and third attempt at the "drill test"... the military is not for you. IMHO you should not graduate with the rest of us who gave 110% all the way.

OK ... I've probably angered enough people with my rant... I will leave now.

Remember, things are never as tough as they used to be.   :

Cheers

 

[FateumetMeum]

In St Jean in 97.....a joke.

The only thing I found "hard" was putting up with the french instructions. Good curse dictionary though.


CORNWALLIS....HELL
My uncle has a picture his buddies took of him after having a barrack box thrown at him. Broken nose and still finished basic.
St Jean was filled with disbanded RCR airborne guys when I went through. So their attiude was bitter but more towards the brass than the trainees.
The media takes the blame for decreased aggression at basic, too many young feellas dyin on the PT runs. Had a 22 yr old kid collapse on our 17 k march, next course did a 10k.

if your looking for comparisons....DON'T Cornwallis has its history and cobb webs, built good soldiers and screened out a lot of shit.
St jean is for a new military, the passive peace keeper, true training doesnt exist until after basic. 

my 2 cents.....

 

[ArmyRick]

I stand by my statement. The time out card did not exist. I have talked to guys involved in the training system for the last 12 years and they all agree, it was a load of sh*t. I would like something more substanstial to back up any claims otherwise.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

How about Cornwallis and St Jean Vs Parris Island.....no match...(just kidding guys, trying to lighten things up a bit).

PJ D-Dog.

 

[Centurian1985]

After talking with Rick I have to agree with him.

His argument appears stronger then mine with more sources to back it up - therefore, I retract my claim that cards were used in the training system, and will have to pummel the so-called reliable source who confirmed for me this was true.

(All bow to Lord Rick, Most Knowledgeable and Noble, many kowtows....)

Take note, its not often I got caught out wrong!  Must be an intelligence failure!!

 

[safeboy43]

How about Cornwallis and St Jean Vs Parris Island.....

My grandfather (now dead) went through paris island during WW2 and cornwallis during the Korean War. He said cornwallis was a walk in the park compared to paris island.....

 

[Gunner98]

Stress cards are now in use in US Army Basic Training system (according to anecdotal evidence from the approx. 150 Capts I am on course with in Texas.)

I was a Coy Comd in Cornwallis, the last B Coy one in 1994 to be clear.  I have spoken to my former sdubordinates/instructors that moved to Saint Jean and other Basic Trg establishments (Area Battle Schools and QL2 summer training) after Cornwallis closed and they indicated that stress cards were not sanctioned by the entire training system.  There is anecdotal evidence from instructors and graduates from some courses that individual sections, platoons and courses have used them.  Instructors and students have indicated that some courses have adopted nap time to replace PT periods when deemed beneficial.

Anecdotal evidence from credible sources involved in individual courses (sections or serials) run in St. Jean, militia armouries and Area Battle School lend some credence to it being more than a legend, but not necessarily establishment policy.

 

[aesop081]

Stress cards are now in use in US Army Basic Training system (according to anecdotal evidence from the approx. 150 Capts I am on course with in Texas.)

Out of curiosity, when did that come in ?  It wasnt in place in 2003 when i was teaching down there.