Cornwallis Vs. St Jean
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Ah the good ol days of Cornwallis when you had to be beaten, screamed at, ridiculed, and weren't allowed to even see or smell your civies for the duration of your time there. All of these elements seem to me to be what makes a good soldier.....oh wait.....no they don't!
I know that in my spry 9 1/2 years in the CF I've only had the pleasure to experience St.Jean (twice - once on BMQ '97, once IAP '05).
I must admit that I do find it funny that people equate the necessity to be beaton and waxing floors with the creation of a good soldier..... It seems a little distorted to me. Being from the navy I've waxed many a deck in my day and have never seen the point. Tasks such as that are mindless tasks, and this is a time when we are training our soldiers to be 'smart'. To obey orders without question still yes, but smart!
Was Cornwallis better then St.Jean? I would submit that that is an impossible question to answer. This may sound corney, but what it comes down to, no matter where the training is conducted, is what the young soldier takes away from the experience. A sense of pride in service, dedication, and esprit de corps. This is what is most important.
I know that in my spry 9 1/2 years in the CF I've only had the pleasure to experience St.Jean (twice - once on BMQ '97, once IAP '05).
I must admit that I do find it funny that people equate the necessity to be beaton and waxing floors with the creation of a good soldier..... It seems a little distorted to me. Being from the navy I've waxed many a deck in my day and have never seen the point. Tasks such as that are mindless tasks, and this is a time when we are training our soldiers to be 'smart'. To obey orders without question still yes, but smart!
Was Cornwallis better then St.Jean? I would submit that that is an impossible question to answer. This may sound corney, but what it comes down to, no matter where the training is conducted, is what the young soldier takes away from the experience. A sense of pride in service, dedication, and esprit de corps. This is what is most important.
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NavyJustice,
The "point" of making recruits wax floors is several fold:
1) It creates a reflex about keeping things neat, clean, and orderly. Since we (soldiers, sailors and airmen) often live in close quarters in sometimes less than hygienic parts of the world, this helps keep us all safe and healthy;
2) It creates a reflex about paying attention to detail. Making someone wax a floor (and I waxed many while on phase trg in Gagetown) may be the first time in their lives that (some recruits) are actually given a job and held to standard. Gotta start somewhere.
3) It is just one of those "many things" that are chucked at recruits that force them to get organized as a group, work as a team, work efficiently and organize their time.
4) Doing all of these things (uniforms, rooms, kit) well actually gives recruits a sense of accomplishment when they begin to "get it".
As for waxing decks once you hit the fleet- you got me on that one. I understand the cleaning stations thing, as I want to live on hygenic ship (notwithstanding how many times I've come down the "[insert ship name here] hack"), but waxing decks seem to me to be going too far. I find them a bit slippery when wet- not something I'm a big fan of in a fire or emergency. Perhaps some of our more "pusser" members could weigh in here...
And we don't want soldiers
Cheers!
The "point" of making recruits wax floors is several fold:
1) It creates a reflex about keeping things neat, clean, and orderly. Since we (soldiers, sailors and airmen) often live in close quarters in sometimes less than hygienic parts of the world, this helps keep us all safe and healthy;
2) It creates a reflex about paying attention to detail. Making someone wax a floor (and I waxed many while on phase trg in Gagetown) may be the first time in their lives that (some recruits) are actually given a job and held to standard. Gotta start somewhere.
3) It is just one of those "many things" that are chucked at recruits that force them to get organized as a group, work as a team, work efficiently and organize their time.
4) Doing all of these things (uniforms, rooms, kit) well actually gives recruits a sense of accomplishment when they begin to "get it".
As for waxing decks once you hit the fleet- you got me on that one. I understand the cleaning stations thing, as I want to live on hygenic ship (notwithstanding how many times I've come down the "[insert ship name here] hack"), but waxing decks seem to me to be going too far. I find them a bit slippery when wet- not something I'm a big fan of in a fire or emergency. Perhaps some of our more "pusser" members could weigh in here...
And we don't want soldiers
. We want soldiers who think while following orders. Questions- certainly- if there is time. If not- I'll explain later. If we are still alive. It should be obvious when you are in one of those "don't ask questions moments".
Cheers!
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Far from pusser but the CO's like their decks waxed and since they rarely have to dress up in B Gear and Chemox thats the way it will remain until someones death or injury is attributed to a waxed deck.
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Why one would wax floors seems no different to me than why we must fold a foot of our linen down on our beds. It is merely to build a manner of organising work and responding to orders (just as SeaKingTacco said).
Regarding the wear of civvies: frankly, I found them a bother. You have to stuff them in your kit bag/suitcase in an empty room with 20 other persons' luggage. So much for anything unwrinkled on the weekends.
I agree that St Jean's dining room is ill-organised (for the amount of persons that go through). Apparently last year sometime there were instructors rushing through all students (SLT too) to get everyone through.
The mess is not too bad for OCdts. Free pool exists, you can 'sneak' into the other parts of the mess and the tv room. I really disagree with the policy that we pay dues, yet cannot vote. I don't even know if there are mess meetings. Can someone tell me how this is legal?
Regarding the wear of civvies: frankly, I found them a bother. You have to stuff them in your kit bag/suitcase in an empty room with 20 other persons' luggage. So much for anything unwrinkled on the weekends.
I agree that St Jean's dining room is ill-organised (for the amount of persons that go through). Apparently last year sometime there were instructors rushing through all students (SLT too) to get everyone through.
The mess is not too bad for OCdts. Free pool exists, you can 'sneak' into the other parts of the mess and the tv room. I really disagree with the policy that we pay dues, yet cannot vote. I don't even know if there are mess meetings. Can someone tell me how this is legal?
"Well here in Borden anyway, but that is a ..."
- Considering the Standards for Recruits in Borden are mandated by the Recruit Standards Cell in St. Jean, you may wish to suggest an effort be made to confirm, and if necessary, standardize the 'Instructor Response' to various situations - if in fact it is different. Someone may be under-reacting and tying your hands needlessly, or, the Instructors in St Jean may well be in the same boat.
Is not your "Recruit Instructor's Aide Memoire" written by the CFRLS Standards Cell in St. Jean?
- Considering the Standards for Recruits in Borden are mandated by the Recruit Standards Cell in St. Jean, you may wish to suggest an effort be made to confirm, and if necessary, standardize the 'Instructor Response' to various situations - if in fact it is different. Someone may be under-reacting and tying your hands needlessly, or, the Instructors in St Jean may well be in the same boat.
Is not your "Recruit Instructor's Aide Memoire" written by the CFRLS Standards Cell in St. Jean?
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SeaKingTacco said:
Your points are well taken seaking tacco as are sailing instructors with regard to what waxing a floor can bring. My response, and I suppose question would be this. People are using the fact that in Cornwallis you used to have to wax floors as (being an element of) equating to being a better training establishment for "boot camp". I didn't have to wax "decks" until hitting the fleet and don't think that it made me less of a soldier/sailor.
Like it was in Cornwallis as it is still at St.Jean, they encourage teamwork and are just as obsessed with burning off threads, measuring out your bed, etc. All of which encourage and promote attention to detail and reflexes about keeping things neat.
I just think it's remiss to use the fact that "in the old days" they had to wax floors, not wear civi's and that they had the joy of being beaten prior to 1982 (pre charter days) that would have made them better soldiers.
From then until now as will be the case in the future, Basic training is about the experience. Regardless of what happens there you're going to get people who are more switched on to the military lifestyle and you're going to continue to get those who "just don't get it".
Jungle
Army.ca Veteran
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Waxing floors was not exclusive to Cornwallis ... we used to wax floors in St-Jean when I went through. I don't feel I have accomplished something special by applying liquid wax on a floor, but I feel they taught me the basics about teamwork, about trusting my peers and superiors, about putting service first; among other things...
While some techniques have come and gone, and the tools have changed, the essence of Basic Trg has remained the same since the time of the Roman Legions. And while some of you seem to live in the past, most of today's Junior Ranks who are fighting today's battles have been trained in the "new", waxless system, and they seem to be doing fine.
While some techniques have come and gone, and the tools have changed, the essence of Basic Trg has remained the same since the time of the Roman Legions. And while some of you seem to live in the past, most of today's Junior Ranks who are fighting today's battles have been trained in the "new", waxless system, and they seem to be doing fine.
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scoutfinch said:
I am a reservist currently doing BMQ too, and we are permitted to do PT and we do it a lot. I'm not a runner and we do a lot of running. A lot of push up too. But, my favorite are the ruck marches. I love them
Went through Cornwallis in '91 and it had it's tough moments to be sure. But beaten? Don't think so... If that was the case, this cat would have been doing some time in Club Ed if you know what I'm saying. I think I have to call bull#$%^!!!
What about NCBW training? I remember being run down the firing range through a cloud of CS gas the day before we wee issued gas masks! Excuse me, does anyone have a kleenex? Name rank and sin # with masks off in the hut, 6 guys at a time and everybody better get it right! Good times
D
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8CH 24C said:
safeboy43 said:
To keep it short ... NO. They do not do this in St. Jean. At least not with my platoon.
In Cornwallis 1984 - 1986, we (instructors) were issued gas grenades to re-inforce recruit masking drills while at the Granville Ferry Ranges during Week 9. Fact is, we spent more time trying to gas each other than we ever did the recruits. You can bet MY drills picked up!
Tom
Tom
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Did the gas in the field thing to us in st jean,also let dummies like myself sniff the container holding the pills the day prior...I'm also the guy who volunteered to put pepper spray in my eye.
D
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rcac_011 said:
When did they stary pepper spray training in St Jean?
1
17thRecceSgt
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Never been to this thing called the "Mega" but...I have a few buddies that went thru Basic there...seemed alot different than what I did. I was in Cornwallis in '89, 12 Platoon - 8930.
10 weeks of fun. Coveralls at night with slippers, berets on as you marched out to the Hollow Square for your allowed 10 minute smoke break (10 to the hour, until the hour...SHARP). Paying attention to detail (marking on workdress pants...last 3, last name, pltn #...on combat pants it was last name, last 3 and initials...screw that one up and you are in for ALOT more sewing, 8 stitches per 1/4 inch...), late nights doing kit/quaters/station jobs...remedial drill with Pte Stompy Stomp...team work team work, max individual effort, hurry up and wait...the PERI staff were fun :-\
All in all, it was the worst thing ever the first week until Thursday. Thursday....you got kitted out...and aside from having to carry all this kit back to your H hut...then...with your new haircut...and a uniform on, you were a soldier (well you thought you were).
Beatings? Never by the staff...they didn't have to. They just gave us "buddies" in week 9 at Granville (buddies were later found out to be 40 lb sand bags...lots of fun on our runs out there :blotto.
When you did that Grad Parade...you felt like you had made it thru something. So there they also built a sense of confidence. It was pretty tough for a civie off the street, which I was, but when we were done...it was like..you had made it thru something and your own self-doubt was less, if not gone.
Would I do it again? with the same group of guys...you betcha.
I have heard the St Jean is more of an "'attendance" thing now. That's what bothers me. We used to have SI (Trng Sgt Inspections) for the people that needed it, and the old RTU Canoe/aka Kit Bag Drag...every week you would see guys with these sorta wheelbarrows dragging their kit to their new Platoon...the ones that were re-coursed. That fear alone kept you on your toes...cause you KNEW you had to re-label ALL your kit...8 stitches per 1/4 inch...as per "The Bible". Once was enough...so you kept your own **** wired tight.
Times have changed...so has the CF. But the lessons, as long as the lessons about team work, loyalty, dedication, service and selflessness, attention to detail, discipline...as long as they are still taught, that should be the most important thing.
I wonder though, when we got kitted out, I lost my belt. I told my Master Seamen, who showed up 20 minutes later and said "You owe me, Millar!"...my (stupid) reaction was to haul out my wallet and say "how much MS?".
Lots and lots and lots of pushups. Would it be the same now?? Would I be able to haul out my "time-out" card?
10 weeks of fun. Coveralls at night with slippers, berets on as you marched out to the Hollow Square for your allowed 10 minute smoke break (10 to the hour, until the hour...SHARP). Paying attention to detail (marking on workdress pants...last 3, last name, pltn #...on combat pants it was last name, last 3 and initials...screw that one up and you are in for ALOT more sewing, 8 stitches per 1/4 inch...), late nights doing kit/quaters/station jobs...remedial drill with Pte Stompy Stomp...team work team work, max individual effort, hurry up and wait...the PERI staff were fun :-\
All in all, it was the worst thing ever the first week until Thursday. Thursday....you got kitted out...and aside from having to carry all this kit back to your H hut...then...with your new haircut...and a uniform on, you were a soldier (well you thought you were).
Beatings? Never by the staff...they didn't have to. They just gave us "buddies" in week 9 at Granville (buddies were later found out to be 40 lb sand bags...lots of fun on our runs out there :blotto
.When you did that Grad Parade...you felt like you had made it thru something. So there they also built a sense of confidence. It was pretty tough for a civie off the street, which I was, but when we were done...it was like..you had made it thru something and your own self-doubt was less, if not gone.
Would I do it again? with the same group of guys...you betcha.
I have heard the St Jean is more of an "'attendance" thing now. That's what bothers me. We used to have SI (Trng Sgt Inspections) for the people that needed it, and the old RTU Canoe/aka Kit Bag Drag...every week you would see guys with these sorta wheelbarrows dragging their kit to their new Platoon...the ones that were re-coursed. That fear alone kept you on your toes...cause you KNEW you had to re-label ALL your kit...8 stitches per 1/4 inch...as per "The Bible". Once was enough...so you kept your own **** wired tight.
Times have changed...so has the CF. But the lessons, as long as the lessons about team work, loyalty, dedication, service and selflessness, attention to detail, discipline...as long as they are still taught, that should be the most important thing.
I wonder though, when we got kitted out, I lost my belt. I told my Master Seamen, who showed up 20 minutes later and said "You owe me, Millar!"...my (stupid) reaction was to haul out my wallet and say "how much MS?".
Lots and lots and lots of pushups. Would it be the same now?? Would I be able to haul out my "time-out" card?
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Shadowhawk said:
Sorry got off on a tangent it was later in my Career I pepper sprayed myself for fun.Should have clarified.
