Compulsory Transfer. MP to new trade. Pay questions.

[Jay1988]

Hey everyone, thanks in advance and I'll keep this short. I received cpl right out of basic training due to signing up as an MP. A week before graduation of the MP course I failed off and receieced a COP to a new trade (my initial first choice). I kept my CPL's despite this, and to this day (almost 2 years later) I still have my CPL's. People have told me this isn't right so I looked into it with a clerk. She told me everything was fine and that I received it based on my completion of BMQ. I guess I am scared that I will have to pay back a ton of money based on their initial mistake (if it in fact even is one) if I ever decide to leave the military. Any knowledge on this situation? Thank you.

 

[dapaterson]

Was the rank substantive, or acting?

 

[Jay1988]

My element was navy and it was Acting lacking, the new trade I switched to I am now Air Force and a Cpl.

 

[Jay1988]

I may be wrong though.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Was the rank substantive, or acting?

IIRC Cpl Sub requires Ql 4 or 5.

 

[hammond]

Had a member on my MP QL3 who also was unsuccessful, and was COP. They lost their Cpl's when they went to their new trade.

 

[DAA]

Hey everyone, thanks in advance and I'll keep this short. I received cpl right out of basic training due to signing up as an MP. A week before graduation of the MP course I failed off and receieced a COP to a new trade (my initial first choice). I kept my CPL's despite this, and to this day (almost 2 years later) I still have my CPL's. People have told me this isn't right so I looked into it with a clerk. She told me everything was fine and that I received it based on my completion of BMQ. I guess I am scared that I will have to pay back a ton of money based on their initial mistake (if it in fact even is one) if I ever decide to leave the military. Any knowledge on this situation? Thank you.

Hope you didn't spend any of that money because you "might" end up paying it back!

You were enrolled in the CF as an MP - Semi-Skilled as a result of completing a recognized College program correct?  If so, then your promotion to Cpl (AL) upon completion of your BMQ is tied directly to your occupational assignment at the time.  If you subsequently do not reach the OFP (ie; completion of your Basic MP Occupational Training) and as a result are Occupationally Reassigned, then this is classified as a "Voluntary Occupation Transfer".  Once you have been selected into a NEW occupation, then you no longer have the "qualification/entitlement" to retain the rank of Cpl and have NO "vested rights to pay".

This is a "doomsday" scenario but hold on for a bit whilst I do some more digging into the issue.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Hey everyone, thanks in advance and I'll keep this short. I received cpl right out of basic training due to signing up as an MP. A week before graduation of the MP course I failed off and receieced a COP to a new trade (my initial first choice). I kept my CPL's despite this, and to this day (almost 2 years later) I still have my CPL's. People have told me this isn't right so I looked into it with a clerk. She told me everything was fine and that I received it based on my completion of BMQ. I guess I am scared that I will have to pay back a ton of money based on their initial mistake (if it in fact even is one) if I ever decide to leave the military. Any knowledge on this situation? Thank you.

Did the clerk tell you everything was fine in an email or in person?  I've had word of mouth direction cost me a few thousand dollars.

If I were you I would start saving up money just incase worse case scenario you do have to pay the CF back.

 

[Jay1988]

Did the clerk tell you everything was fine in an email or in person?  I've had word of mouth direction cost me a few thousand dollars.

If I were you I would start saving up money just incase worse case scenario you do have to pay the CF back.

I have it in email, not only that, her exact words were " I am 100% sure that the member should have kept his rank and pay".

 

[MJP]

I have it in email, not only that, her exact words were " I am 100% sure that the member should have kept his rank and pay".

Regardless an email or word of mouth may not be enough cause to not have you repay the amount.  Take a look through the Grievance Board Case Summaries with a key word seach under overpayment to see how you case stacks ups against other decisions.  http://mgerc-ceegm.gc.ca/cs-sc/index-eng.html#frmCurrentFormID

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Hope you didn't spend any of that money because you "might" end up paying it back!

You were enrolled in the CF as an MP - Semi-Skilled as a result of completing a recognized College program correct?  If so, then your promotion to Cpl (AL) upon completion of your BMQ is tied directly to your occupational assignment at the time.  If you subsequently do not reach the OFP (ie; completion of your Basic MP Occupational Training) and as a result are Occupationally Reassigned, then this is classified as a "Voluntary Occupation Transfer".  Once you have been selected into a NEW occupation, then you no longer have the "qualification/entitlement" to retain the rank of Cpl and have NO "vested rights to pay".

This is a "doomsday" scenario but hold on for a bit whilst I do some more digging into the issue.

Would it not be under the MOC reassignment part of CFAO 11-12 under lack of proficiency?  Ie compulsory not voluntary?

 

[ModlrMike]

My interpretation:

Compulsory reassignment due to CF  issues = vested

Compulsory reassignment due to personal issues = not vested

I would think that failure to progress would be a personal issue in this instance.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

IIRC the CFAO wording is "due to lack of proficiency".  Vested would be from a medical OT or if by reasons of the service such as when army sigs amalgamated LCIS, Linemen and Sig Ops into ACCIS.

 

[DAA]

Here, you guys can fight over the current policy which is CBI 204.03

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits/ch-204-pay-policy-officers-ncms.page

204.03 - Pay on Occupational Transfer

204.03(1) (Definitions)The definitions in this paragraph apply in this instruction.

compulsory occupational transfer -  means an officer or non-commissioned member who is obligated to change their military occupation as a result of:
a.  the elimination of their military occupation
b.  the downgrading of their military occupation to a lower trade group;
c.  the amalgamation of two or more military occupations;
d.  not meeting the minimum medical standard for their occupation; or
e.  a change in the overall military establishment, including a surplus or deficiency in a military occupation.

occupational career progression  -  means the achievement by a non-commissioned member of occupational or professional qualifications – established by or under the authority of the Chief of the Defence Staff – that entitle the member to a rate of pay in a higher trade group, and includes progression from a junior to a qualified level within the same occupation.
(TB, effective 1 March 2012)

voluntary occupational transfer  -  means an officer or non-commissioned member who has precipitated a change in their military occupation as a result of:
a.  a personal decision to change occupation;
b.  personal inefficiency, including personal performance or conduct, in their former occupation;
c.  their failure to achieve the academic or military standard in their occupation;
d.  the Officer Voluntary Transfer Program (OVOTP);
e.  the Annual Voluntary Occupation Transfer (AVOT);
f.  the Continuing Occupation Transfer Program (COTP);
g.  the Land Occupation Transfer Program (LOTP); or
h.  the Naval Technician Training Plan (NTTP).


I am getting the not so warm and fuzzies due to this question and think that this might not be the only instance.  Time will tell....