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CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

dimsum

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Spencer100

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A pragmatic split-fleet (I know, I know…trust me…not optimal) that could give the RCAF what it truly needs (P3) and what the Government wants (for arguments sake, sets say the DeHavilland/PAL P4) might be the least of the evils to get capability AND support Canadian industry in an airboat ion mini-equivalent of the NSS program.
I kind of like the idea. But supporting Dehavilland is not something this will do. As Bombardier is not in the business anymore.

If they had wanted to support them they could have purchased Twin Otters years ago with zero political blowback.
 

Good2Golf

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I kind of like the idea. But supporting Dehavilland is not something this will do. As Bombardier is not in the business anymore.

If they had wanted to support them they could have purchased Twin Otters years ago with zero political blowback.
@Spencer100, that was true up until a year and a bit ago.

DeHavilland pulled a ‘Phoenix’ (the good, reincarnated bird kind, not the shitty government public servant non-pay system kind) a few years ago and very much is alive and reasonably well.

 

Good2Golf

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If the new aircraft patrolled at 50000’ and its crews were in Canada…

But FORTE and it’s ilk were intended to complement strike assets.
Hey man, I wasn’t part of the crowd that rebranded themselves from ASW to LRP (MPA) to be less visibly ‘killy’ and more ‘looky’… 😉
 

Spencer100

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@Spencer100, that was true up until a year and a bit ago.

DeHavilland pulled a ‘Phoenix’ (the good, reincarnated bird kind, not the shitty government public servant non-pay system kind) a few years ago and very much is alive and reasonably well.

Oh I know DeHavilland is back. The history buff in me loves that Viking and PE firm rebranded back into DeHavilland. I was make less a comment about the DHC then being more a snide comment about this government more concerned about the old Bombardier and Family than other workers and companies. LIke everyone is equal just some are more equal then others.

OT the whole dust up about Boeing a few years back, the Winnipeg was totally forgotten and thrown under the bus.

This whole thing just burns my....

Trudeau has made a total mess of this file. Starting with the no F-35...this leads to OK we have a fighter gap, hey RCAF general get me a fighter gap. Liberals then say we will just buy F-18E,F as a quick purchase to fill the gap as an interim. They just think its the same as we have CF-18 equal CF-18E no one will care. And they can punt the rest of the purchase to the future and the new CF-18E will be in the pole position to win the whole thing. This will fit with Trudeau's no F-35 election promise.

But then Oh NO! Boeing wins Trade Tribunal ruling against favourite son Bombardier. US government sanctions Bombardier At about this time Delta orders the CS220. Bombardier is having financial problems too. The bomber goes to Airbus and agrees for them to assemble US purchased CS220 in their new US plant to avoid US tariffs.

Bombardier sells Airbus control of the CS220 program and the Caisse too. They later buy 100%.

Over in Ottawa the government throws a fit. And returns sanctions to Boeing. This ends the interim f-18E buy. (no one cares about the Winnipeg plant at this point)

But what to do?......they made a fighter gap....and we can't just buy the F-35......Ok Australia is dumping their old F-18 for the new F-35. Great lets just buy those. And then pay to Canadianize them and bring to fighting form.

In the meantime Bombardier is in even more financial distress. They begin the great BBD sell off everything. Rail to the Caisse and then Alstom. The entire old Dehavilland product lines to Viking plus the Waterbomber and Short Bros 330 and Sherpa Type Certs. The CRJ program goes to Mitsubishi. Short Brothers and Other assembly locations in Mexico and Africa go to Spirit Aerosystems. Lear is closed. CAE buys training business. ETC

So the Liberal Government moves on this file.....got what? Some used f-18's, Bombardier still imploded taking millions in government money with it. Years of delays to get back to place they were 7 years ago buying the F-35. Still no sign contract. And because of fit about Boeing delaying who knows what other contracts.
 

dimsum

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Hey man, I wasn’t part of the crowd that rebranded themselves from ASW to LRP (MPA) to be less visibly ‘killy’ and more ‘looky’… 😉
More like “we need to do something visible while all eyes are turned to Afghanistan”.

We weren’t the only MPA fleet doing the rebrand. Lots of other nations’ MPAs flew in Afghanistan and Iraq.
 

Good2Golf

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More like “we need to do something visible while all eyes are turned to Afghanistan”.

We weren’t the only MPA fleet doing the rebrand. Lots of other nations’ MPAs flew in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Ack, but one must always be careful for what one wishes. Rebranding, once the original brand is forgotten, like governments are oft want to do, can be a challenge to walk back to the ‘old days.’ Not that a back-in-the-day capability isn’t now needed, I appreciate that it is, but unless it’s a Government-driven, ‘DND along for the ride’ (like the Griffon was) push, refreshing/rebirthing/reimagining/re-whatevering a new version of an older concept won’t be without its challenges. #beentheregotthetshirt 😉
 

Spencer100

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Liberals screwed the aerospace file...

Just wait till the Automotive file outcomes comes to light. Even bigger billions spent.

Billions to all the automakers with plants in Canada and billions to Asian battery suppliers. Its funny the new $5 Billion LG Chem (Stallantis) plant is being built next door to the last Green energy great idea the CS Wind (Samsung) plant the Ont Liberals subsided to the tune of millions. Open and closed in four years after subsidized wind turbines stopped being built in Ontario.

I wish the government would stop picking winners and losers they are not very good at it. Just create an atmosphere that companies can succeed.
 

Eye In The Sky

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what is the purpose in having a patrol aircraft that can't eliminate the enemy? What does it do, send a telegram to ask that it depart forthwith or else?

Directly related - Canada put 3 Arcturus aircraft on the line. They all burned thru their hours and are laid up in the desert or museums. It was basically an Aurora minus the ASW kit and with a better SS radar.

We’ve done it before…
 

Eye In The Sky

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More like “we need to do something visible while all eyes are turned to Afghanistan”.

We weren’t the only MPA fleet doing the rebrand. Lots of other nations’ MPAs flew in Afghanistan and Iraq.

But, they did more to make the aircraft tactically relevant. P-3 LSRS and AIP come to mind quickly for the USN…
 

Eye In The Sky

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A pragmatic split-fleet (I know, I know…trust me…not optimal) that could give the RCAF what it truly needs (P3) and what the Government wants (for arguments sake, sets say the DeHavilland/PAL P4) might be the least of the evils to get capability AND support Canadian industry in an airboat ion mini-equivalent of the NSS program.

I’m starting to be more open about this as a reality, to be honest. There are some valuable options for using the remaining like on the 140
and some significant monies were invested into the 14 remaining.

Back in 67, Dad did his OTU on Neptune. He then went to 415 and did his conversion course to Argus while on Sqn. Hmmmm…

Main negative factor for 140s; cost per hour of operation.
 

Colin Parkinson

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I’m starting to be more open about this as a reality, to be honest. There are some valuable options for using the remaining like on the 140
and some significant monies were invested into the 14 remaining.

Back in 67, Dad did his OTU on Neptune. He then went to 415 and did his conversion course to Argus while on Sqn. Hmmmm…

Main negative factor for 140s; cost per hour of operation.
What about a dual P3 and P8 fleet, what would that us froma tactical, ASW perspective? (yes I know about the training and maintenance) But is there a worthwhile benefit from the other side of the coin?
 

dimsum

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What about a dual P3 and P8 fleet, what would that us froma tactical, ASW perspective? (yes I know about the training and maintenance) But is there a worthwhile benefit from the other side of the coin?
Without getting into too many details, the P-8 is designed to replace the P-3. The MQ-4C Triton RPAS is supposed to work alongside the P-8 - it started as the Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) Project.

It would probably make more sense to have an RPAS (Triton or other) and P-8 pair up, rather than P-3 and P-8.
 

Eye In The Sky

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What about a dual P3 and P8 fleet, what would that us froma tactical, ASW perspective? (yes I know about the training and maintenance) But is there a worthwhile benefit from the other side of the coin?

I would be thinking of making the 140 fleet a domestic op and trg platform, and P-8 fleet to the operational Sqns. The 140 is a great search platform and has some limited rescue ability (SKAD/ASKAD).

It’s also costly to operate/hour of flight. But we just sank significant $ into the fleet.

The Block 3 and 4 have done co-op successfully with P-8. The question isn’t so much based on airframes as it is avionics, weapons and the tactics that match up with those. I’m not convinced the GOC is willing to invest in ASW the way the USN and others are moving to. It will cost a lot more to “get a wpn in the water” from altitude.

I’m not convinced the option will be “both” from the GOC though.
 

Good2Golf

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I’m not convinced the GOC is willing to invest in ASW the way the USN and others are moving to. It will cost a lot more to “get a wpn in the water” from altitude.

I’m not convinced the option will be “both” from the GOC though.
if it was one only, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised to see the GoC direct a P4/Q400 platform.
 

Eye In The Sky

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if it was one only, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised to see the GoC direct a P4/Q400 platform.

Neither would I; our govt cares more about votes than military capability.

The real discussion should be centered around avionics/mission/comms systems and weapons and…number of replacement aircraft.

Unfortunately, “we” don’t have an impressive recent history with military aircraft procurement. C17 is the last one I think we can mention and get this reaction to…

Robert Redford Agree GIF


MH, FWSAR…more like this…

Season 7 Oops GIF by Workaholics


Fighters?

Embarrassed Duck GIF
 
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