CISM-Conseil International du Sport Militaire 2011

[dapaterson]

But again, what does CF operational effectiveness have to do with your desire to have a belt of any colour?  A CF TKD association is a cost to the CF to subsidize your hobby.

And saying "CISM is a recruiting tool", well, there are many recruiting tools.  Right now we're overborne.  Perhaps there are less expensive recruiting tools out there.

And - if sport is more important than service to the nation for someone, why would we want those folks in uniform?  Service before self is apparently an obsolete concept...

 

[PuckChaser]

What does CF operational effectiveness have to do with you having weekends? Or being able to live outside PMQs? The exact same nothing. We waste far more money on TD and items than being used for the CF sports program. All I gather from these posts is people are upset that they don't have the talent to compete at the Regional/National/International level and are bitter about it. I love playing hockey, but I doubt I'll ever make it to even a regional team. It still gives me a huge boost to my morale to be able to play 1-2 games a week with guys from my unit, even if its just for a small plaque to hang at the Base Gym.

I submit that the people you are trying to take sports away from are the kind of soldiers who you want in the CF. These individuals are very physically fit, far more than most in the CF. If they want to play sports and represent the CF, go for it. If they are slated for a tour, then they don't get to compete that year. 5 bucks says all of those individuals are perfectly OK with putting operations before sporting events.

 

[Strike]

Thank-you Puck Chaser.  That's what I was trying to say but, alas, am too emotionally invested in the subject being directly affected by it.

 

[dapaterson]

But you don't address my Bloggins or Jones.  Do we only provide financial support to self-actualization through sport?

In times when resources are constrained, is it the best use of taxpayer dollars to subsidize "elite" athletes?  Or would those resources be better applied to lower-level competitions - house leagues and such?

Arguing there are other areas where funds are wasted is irrelevant - those wastes should be pared back as well.

 

[PuckChaser]

Again, you're back to my first point. You're upset because you don't get to make a trip to Rio or whatever to compete in a sporting event. Are you this negative towards our Olympic athletes? They probably have far more subsidies than a military competitor. I bet you most of the CISM athletes train by playing unit-level sports, and pay for coaching on their own. You talk like we are posting people to the CISM Soccer team and they do nothing but drain money from the CF. They're the same as any other RMS Clerk/Infanteer/Stoker/AC Op, but they happen to be good at playing a certain sport.

Again, I'll state that these are the kind of people we want in the CF. They don't fail BFTs. They work hard during the day, and put in extra hours on nights and weekends to prepare themselves for competition so they can represent the CF on the International stage. I bet most of them would be able to compete at the international level without the CF helping them along.

You keep coming back to Service before Self, and CF Operational Effectiveness. You're basically insulting the integrity and sense of duty of these people, without having ever met them. I personally know someone who has been scouted for the CISM Soccer team. Great soldier, and practices on his own time to better prepare for it. Oh, did I mention he didn't get a shot at the CISM team because he was deploying? He could have made the choice but decided his duty was to be operational, and soccer was just a game he could come back to after.

 

[Strike]

DP -- It almost goes back to the chicken and the egg syndrome.  I see CISM as being the reason house leagues and base level sports are available to soldiers.  Get rid of CISM and it's only a matter of time before the money disappears for lower level sports.

You would likely look at it and say that the removal of CISM would not affect base level sports.  If that's true, why don't we have a biathlon range in Petawawa anymore?  There were unit level competitions when the sport was a CISM sport.  It disappeared and not long after so did the unit level competition where everyone was out with their C7s and bangy boards.

It's because of CISM that we also have people who are trained as officials and instructors.  CISM has a need for officials, we train them, they have to officiate so many events a year (which they do at the base level) or have to keep their instructional quals up (which again they do at the base level).  You get rid of CISM, you get rid of all these officials, you have no one to work events like Strong Contender, etc, etc.  It's more than one or two guys who are going to Rio to compete at the CISM games.

 

[dapaterson]

Again, you're back to my first point. You're upset because you don't get to make a trip to Rio or whatever to compete in a sporting event.

Not at all.  If I want to go somewhere, I pay for it out of my own pocket; I don't expect the CF to subsidize my hobbies.

Are you this negative towards our Olympic athletes? They probably have far more subsidies than a military competitor.

The IOC is an inbred international gang of gadflies, hangers-on and failed royalty who extort millions from countries to stage events that are only "amateur" if you squint really hard.  The Olympics movement is a foul perversion of its stated ideals.  But we're not talking about that repulsive international collection of frauds here, so my opinion of it is hardly relevant.

I bet you most of the CISM athletes train by playing unit-level sports, and pay for coaching on their own. You talk like we are posting people to the CISM Soccer team and they do nothing but drain money from the CF. They're the same as any other RMS Clerk/Infanteer/Stoker/AC Op, but they happen to be good at playing a certain sport.

Ask anyone who's ever had to pull extras to cover for a hockey star about their perspective on this.

Again, I'll state that these are the kind of people we want in the CF. They don't fail BFTs. They work hard during the day, and put in extra hours on nights and weekends to prepare themselves for competition so they can represent the CF on the International stage. I bet most of them would be able to compete at the international level without the CF helping them along.

You keep coming back to Service before Self, and CF Operational Effectiveness. You're basically insulting the integrity and sense of duty of these people, without having ever met them. I personally know someone who has been scouted for the CISM Soccer team. Great soldier, and practices on his own time to better prepare for it. Oh, did I mention he didn't get a shot at the CISM team because he was deploying? He could have made the choice but decided his duty was to be operational, and soccer was just a game he could come back to after.

"He could have made the choice" sums it all up - I am pleased that your friend made the right choice; the fact that there even was a choice is where the problem lies.  Not with him, but with a system that would even consider such an option.  That there could be a choice of "sports or deployment" suggests a deep well of sickness in the institution.


I know that I am tiliting at windmills here; CISM and elite sports and the Army Run are all here to stay in the CF.  All the jocks brought in to RMC to play sports end their careers as generals protecting their racket.  I still have yet to see any explanation of why sports are more worthy of support than other forms of self-actualization; but, given the always latent anti-intellectualism of the CF, it's hardly a surprise.  (The again, when a moron like Don Cherry (unable to count to five) is hailed as a hero by the CF, what can you expect?)

 

[Strike]

DP, you're one of those guys that got pissed they had to take phys ed in grade 9 weren't you.  ;D  *Ducks as I await the barrage of crumpled paper balls about to be thrown my way.*

Remind me not to ever talk about sports whenever we get together.  Obviously we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[dapaterson]

DP, you're one of those guys that got pissed they had to take phys ed in grade 9 weren't you.  ;D  *Ducks as I await the barrage of crumpled paper balls about to be thrown my way.*

Actually, I enjoyed phys ed - working with peers, trying different sports and activities.

Remind me not to ever talk about sports whenever we get together.

I don't mind a friendly argument (and they're mroe fun in person, and easier to put across nuance than in a text exchange).  But if you're going to suggest that hockey coaches don't need to be able to count to five...

Obviously we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Where's the "I can drink to that" icon?

 

[Strike]

Where's the "I can drink to that" icon?

:cheers:

 

[Newapplicant78]

I've remained silent and for good reason since you gentleman have quite the opinions towards sports in the CF. The recruit told me that sports had been put on hold and told me to look around. I stumbled on the CF runners page that hasn't been updated. Through some further research I was able to locate the CISM  website and I posted the article.

quote author=HFXCrow link=topic=99293/post-1016667#msg1016667 date=1297084372]
Sending a 20 person ice hockey team from Halifax to Borden (25k est) for a 5 day jolly including TD, Flights, meals etc etc is where our valuable money should be not be going. These resources should be directed to the unit level (sports days, adventure training, fitness clinics) that encourage team building and morale for everybody.

CISM in my opinion is a waste of time and money, Canada is a leader on the international stage. We are visible!

[/quote]

We live in Canada land of hockey (I don't play) but if the sport keeps those athletes motivated then why not?
However, if this abandons other sports then it only means less athletes are supported in physical activities. Not Fair  :-\

Canada is in the public eye and I see it as a showing of the abilities of the men/women in the military.

Umm - if your hobby is more important than your job, quit your job and find sponsors to support you.  The CF's mandate is not to support athletes.

I've struggled as an aging athlete I now have personal goals for myself. But should I manage to surpass my PB then why should I have the option to compete with others in my field on an international level. With that said if you wre to say have a NHL -type player playing in a house league at the level in which he is capable you may wish he would go else where to play or at least hope he would show others how kick butt he is as a member.
Ultimately, I know of athletes who would never make this their personal choice and others who have.

Yes, it is the bread and butter on the table at the end of the day and I don't see anything wrong with someone partaking in unit sport, and paying for extra coaching. I'm hoping for the best coaches I can afford frankly.  :facepalm:  If you enjoy staying active why not.

I previously trained 6 days of the week as an amateur athlete. I've remained injury free since leaving the sport.  It's only due to a lack of information that this decision was not made years earlier. 

The training officials and instructors information that is new to me. 
So once again I thank you gentleman for your opinions.
If all goes well I'm looking forward to BMQ.  5K run anyone  >
First round on me  8)

 

[Journeyman]

...you gentleman have quite the opinions

Having called Strike a gentleman....twice....I hope you can run.  ;D

 

[Strike]

To be fair, I don't have it identified on my profile, but that's to keep some anonymity. 

 

[Journeyman]

Yes, but

Don't piss me off.  I have two older brothers, work with a bunch of men, and I can kick their asses!

strongly suggests you're of that delicate wallflower gender 

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

The entire thread

Soooo....my PRes unit went ALL THE WAY...from Halifax to Aldershot. (whoopee...twirl finger)
And we had "MOUT training" (or whatever it's being designated as these days).

The section inside had C7's ....no mags, no blanks, lots of them with no Elcans.....
The sections outside, (on perimiter) had...wait for it........STICKS.

We patrolled, and cleared the "shoot house" with f-ing sticks....literally sticks....from trees.

("IT'S BUDGETARY!"...we heard called over the hills.....)

I know I'm waaaaay out of my lane, but I kinda wish that my unit had money for training when I was in.

BTW....as far as I know....we didn't even spend any money on basketballs, pucks, or volleyballs!

 

[Newapplicant78]

DWL….Sorry Madam I try to keep a level of MYOB here still..guess I have to watch my back from now on.  :-[
 

BTW....as far as I know....we didn't even spend any money on basketballs, pucks, or volleyballs!

No balls or pucks good thing I can run...just need 2 feet.

As you all can tell I have thumbs for fingers  :facepalm:

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

No balls or pucks good thing I can run...just need 2 feet.

I don't know....I just don't see the point.
My Grandpa explained the sports program (that he experienced). YMMV.

It was just something to do for the guys that were stuck in Europe...but were past the physical point of being able to fight ("my arm's off"....."me knee is on the wrong side of me leg"...etc).....I think some people forget that the "birthing" (or real recognition) of the sports teams in the CF resulted from a War that when you went....you were there for the duration.

My Grandpa got home in late 1945....but was told the fighting was over for him in late '44, (I believe).
The fellas had to do something for the interim......SPORTS.

Kept 'em from killin' each other...

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Just get rid of the absolutely useless *academic training and start spending it on something useful........sports.

* Before some start to snort and whine profusely, I mean the ones that might look good on the wall but have nothing to do with the CF job.

 

[Journeyman]

Just get rid of the absolutely useless *academic training and start spending it on something useful........sports.

* Before some start to snort and whine profusely, I mean the ones that might look good on the wall but have nothing to do with the CF job.

Gutsy move. I recall Technoviking posting something recently about having studied philosophy and Prussian ballroom dancing, or something.....

op: