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Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread

Czech_pivo said:
Because its a few days before Biden visits - circle the wagons and pretend all is well - after he leaves the knives better come out.
Click to expand...
That's funny, to pretend all is well. The Americans know even more than CSIS does on this. It's interesting to note that Biden will be meeting with PP also.
 
Czech_pivo said:
Because its a few days before Biden visits - circle the wagons and pretend all is well - after he leaves the knives better come out.
Click to expand...
I doubt it. They’re in a suicide pact and there’s more than a good chance they’ll survive. Andrew Coyne has a good article in the Globe about how Canadian PM’s don’t face the same kind of accountability as other world leaders.

www.theglobeandmail.com

Opinion: Other world leaders may be brought to account, but Canadian prime ministers, it seems, are invincible

Our culture of deference to the party leader, and our system of party discipline, means prime ministers aren’t held to account
www.theglobeandmail.com www.theglobeandmail.com
 
JLB50 said:
If evidence supports the allegations against Han Dong, would his offence be considered seditious? Come to think of it, when was the last time anyone in Canada was charged with sedition? And would Canada, following the Two Michaels Affair, be too terrified of charging Han Dong for fear of retribution by China?
Click to expand...

So, speaking very generally here, what would need to be determined:

1. What are the facts and who are they known to?
2. If the facts are known to an intelligence service, what info can be passed on to police, that the intelligence organization would be willing to have disclosed in court?
3. Is sufficient evidence available - that could be disclosed in court - to allow police to meaningfully investigate?
4. Once police have information, is there an actual identifiable criminal offense?

If there’s evidence - admissible in court - of a criminal offense, then police can work on that, and investigate further. A lot of options open up once you have grounds to believe an offense was committed and that a search or investigative technique will afford evidence of an offense.

Intelligence information can be very useful for solving national problems and formulating policy. For criminal purposes though, the obligation on the crown to disclose all relevant material in court can make it very treacherous to build an investigation off security intelligence. The risk of compromising intelligence sources and methods may be deemed to be more important than a criminal investigation and prosecution, particularly if the problem activities or behavior can be disrupted through other means.
 
QV said:
That's funny, to pretend all is well. The Americans know even more than CSIS does on this. It's interesting to note that Biden will be meeting with PP also.
Click to expand...
Its completely, completely normal that the Americans are meeting with PP - that has been the standard practice for decades and decades - meeting with both the government and the leader of the opposition - we do the exact same thing when we go down to washington - we meet both sides of the aisle. Its how the groundwork is laid in developing relationships that may or may not need to be developed for future use. Nothing to see here, move along.
 
Does anyone at this point actually care whether or not he's guilty ?
I just saw video of Han Dong speaking in the House.
My great fear isn't that he some sort of agent for PRC but that he is collateral damage .
If he is innocent the blow back will almost nuclear .
You could probably at that point ,auction off members of the house publicly to what ever foreign government or corporate interests that wanted them.
And no one would say a word for fear of being accused of paranoia or xenophobia.
Think of the reaction to the McCarthy hearings in the US .....on steroids.
 
GK .Dundas said:
Does anyone at this point actually care whether or not he's guilty ?
I just saw video of Han Dong speaking in the House.
My great fear isn't that he some sort of agent for PRC but that he is collateral damage .
If he is innocent the blow back will almost nuclear .
You could probably at that point ,auction off members of the house publicly to what ever foreign government or corporate interests that wanted them.
And no one would say a word for fear of being accused of paranoia or xenophobia.
Think of the reaction to the McCarthy hearings in the US .....on steroids.
Click to expand...
I do have great fears that it could turn out to be a McCarthy-style witch-hunt in which far more innocent people end up getting tarred and feathered (or worse) than the truly guilty.

Ultimately, CSIS or whichever intelligence organization initially made these accusations should IMHO be required to provide proof of their sources to BOTH the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. And if those organizations are unable or unwilling to do so, then perhaps CSIS should be terminated as our main source of intelligence.

But if Han Dong and/or others are guilty, then I sure hope that they don’t get off scott free. Mind you, Justin would probably say something along the lines of: “We don’t punish people here the way they do in other countries. This is Canada, and people who have done things that offend our sensibilities learn better from a simple admonishment, a raising of the eyebrows or a look of disappointment on our collective faces.” Don’t you love the way Justin talks down to Canadians and treats us all like children who don’t know better?
 
JLB50 said:
I do have great fears that it could turn out to be a McCarthy-style witch-hunt in which far more innocent people end up getting tarred and feathered (or worse) than the truly guilty. Ultimately, CSIS or whichever intelligence organization initially made these accusations should IMHO be required to provide proof of their sources to BOTH the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. And if those organizations are unable or unwilling to do so, then perhaps CSIS should be terminated as our main source of intelligence. But if Han Dong and/or others are guilty, then I sure hope that they don’t get off scott free. Mind you, Justin would probably say something along the lines of: “We don’t punish people here the way they do in other countries. This is Canada, and people who have done things that offend our sensibilities learn better from a simple admonishment, a raising of the eyebrows or a look of disappointment on our collective faces.” Don’t you love the way Justin talks down to Canadians and treats us all like children who don’t know better?
Click to expand...

You do realize what this is all about, don't you? It is that the intel agency did provide all of this to the government, which opted to do exactly nothing about it... hence the leaks to the media.

So it is our elected government that has been unwilling to do anything... how might they be terminated, to use your words? Waiting on the chief perpetrator to call the next election which will be rife with foreign influence doesn't seem like a good COA.

Can the party in power not call on the resignation of at least everyone involved??? There should be floor crossing and all kinds of lost confidence stuff happening.
 
QV said:
You do realize what this is all about, don't you? It is that the intel agency did provide all of this to the government, which opted to do exactly nothing about it... hence the leaks to the media.

So it is our elected government that has been unwilling to do anything... how might they be terminated, to use your words? Waiting on the chief perpetrator to call the next election which will be rife with foreign influence doesn't seem like a good COA.

Can the party in power not call on the resignation of at least everyone involved??? There should be floor crossing and all kinds of lost confidence stuff happening.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree with you but I think it worthwhile to keep up the pressure on the government, hopefully requiring that Justin step down at a minimum to a non confidence motion being sustained. Either one could result in a huge change with respect to foreign influence. I would prefer to see an election, sooner rather than later.

Also, even though I think the intel agency did correctly provide all info to the government, I also recall how the U.S. and other intel agencies assured the world that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. If the intel agency can prove or have already proved that their intel is correct, then Canada should go after the offenders with a vengeance, which could involve imprisonment, being expelled from Canada, being voted out of office or fired outright without severance pay. In other words, do as much as the law permits…and then some. But as much as I feel anger about the recent events as well as events over the last few decades, I don’t want my anger to cloud my judgement. I don’t want the innocent to get hurt. And that is something that could very easily happen in our current climate.
 
The thing is if this goes South you could probably kiss the very concept of National Security in this country good bye for good twenty years.
Which at this point in history would be ..
I can't think of an adjective to describe how bad this would be .
 
GK .Dundas said:
The thing is if this goes South you could probably kiss the very concept of National Security in this country good bye for good twenty years.
Which at this point in history would be ..
I can't think of an adjective to describe how bad this would be .
Click to expand...
If this goes South and its found out that CSIS dropped the ball and false information was given out, it won't be the end of the world. The UK's Mi5/Mi6 survived the entire Philby affair that went on and on for 40yrs. New policies, procedures and checks and balances were put in place and time marched on.
Remember the reasons why CSIS itself was created in the first place - because the previous owner of their responsibilities screwed the pooch and lost the trust of the Government and the public.
 
JLB50 said:
And then this…

nationalpost.com

Adam Zivo: Here's why the outrageous Han Dong scandal is plausible

If the Michaels were released before the 2021 election, the Liberals could have faced intensified criticism of their China appeasement
nationalpost.com nationalpost.com

After 20 years of China’s attempts to control our government will this latest episode prove to be the final straw that broke the Bactrian camel’s back?
Click to expand...
Telling:

For example, the Toronto Star reported that the diplomatic implications of the Michaels’ release were “murky” and that “China seems to have gotten what it wanted, and may now be able to intimidate its way out of future extradition efforts.” In another article, The Star quoted an expert who said that China wanted to “leave the message that you know what’s going to happen if you mess around with us.”

When the Toronto Star is publically going against the Liberal Party you know that the fish stinks from the head down. The TS is in many ways the mouth organ of the Liberal Party.
 
QV said:
You do realize what this is all about, don't you? It is that the intel agency did provide all of this to the government, which opted to do exactly nothing about it... hence the leaks to the media.
Click to expand...
You should recall that, at the outset of this "miscommunication", Trudeau's focus was on the source of the leak, not the content. That should concern us on two fronts, the most important being that someone in CSIS has so little faith in the goverment to act with integrity that they saw the leak as neccessary.
 
Even more telling of where this Government is headed is the fact I Googled the exact title of this news story so I could forward it on to some friends and there wasn't a single Canadian news story with regard to Hong or the allegations shown to me by Google. A handful of completely unrelated foreign news stories and "end of results".

EDIT: Yes I spelt it correctly in the search, I'll leave it here for context
 
Haggis said:
You should recall that, at the outset of this "miscommunication", Trudeau's focus was on the source of the leak, not the content. That should concern us on two fronts, the most important being that someone in CSIS has so little faith in the goverment to act with integrity that they saw the leak as neccessary.
Click to expand...
Quite frankly, if all this comes out to be true - this individual or individuals at CSIS should ALL be sited for some sort of official recognition and awards.
 
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