CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split

[Pinggew]

maybe she meant a year and 166 days... would be a tad more accurate.

 

[MilEME09]

So it appears someone with a voice other then us has finally noticed that our recruiting system is indeed broken.

Blatchford: Inept recruiting system costing Canadian Forces

As the last Canadian soldiers returned from Afghanistan this week, those who would follow them into uniform are being stymied by a woefully inept recruiting system where it takes an average of 166 days to be processed.

That’s the ludicrous length of time it takes from the moment someone first walks into a recruiting office, wanting to sign up to become a soldier, until he or she is put on the “merit list,” which means all the necessary boxes have been checked.

The stinging criticism comes in a draft report done late last year by the Defence Science Advisory Board, a private sector group which isn’t part of the Defence Department, but advises it.

The group is composed of leaders from business and academia, who work for free. Its most recent report cited “glaring weaknesses” in Canada’s ability to respond to emergencies in the Arctic.

Postmedia News has obtained a copy of the 23-page report entitled Recruiting the Millennial Generation and dated last October.

It is the result of a request from the research arm of the Defence Department to examine how well the recruiting process is working with millennials, those born after 1981.

But in its study, the board found that grotesque delay cuts across the Canadian Forces and that the attitude at the top of the CF Recruiting Group is cavalier about attracting the vaunted “best and brightest.”

The report says that when board members visited the CFRG headquarters and met the commander, “He appeared massively unconcerned with anyone who, for whatever reason, does not get accepted, repeatedly describing all unsuccessful applicants as ‘road kill’,” the report says.

Worse, it says, the commander showed no regret that the recruiting process may be passing over those who with encouragement might become “entirely desirable candidates” or that the head office attitude could undermine recruiting efforts.

It says that while the delay might be particularly frustrating to impatient millennials, it causes the Forces to lose all kinds of candidates.

For instance, top students looking for scholarships, whose first choice is one of the Royal Military Colleges in Kingston, Ont., and Saint-Jean, Que., routinely don’t get the results of their military selection boards until months after civilian universities have made their offers.

“The advice often given these distressed and conflicted families is to lie,” the report says – in other words, to accept the civilian offers, then explain they can’t attend if they get an offer from RMC or RMC Saint-Jean.

When the board told that story to the recruiting commander, he said if students didn’t follow the advice, more “road kill” would result.

“That is not the view of this board!”, the report says.

The commander isn’t named, and it’s unclear, given the regular changes of command in the military, who was in the role at the time the board saw him.

The situation is perhaps most dire for the reserves, or militia.

These are Canada’s part-time soldiers whose members made such an enormous contribution during the country’s 12-year-long mission to Afghanistan.

During visits to CF recruiting offices – a dozen of these are slated to close – board members found recruiters had little knowledge of officer training plans for reservists.

As well, it takes an average 150 days for a reserve recruit to be processed – a situation the report calls “so egregiously distant from various public pronouncements of at least one former CDS (Chief of Defence Staff) as to how long the process should take that it saps confidence in the system and invites public derision by its clients.”

Coincidentally, Reserves 2000, a lobby group formed to fight against cuts to the militia, recently told Defence Minister Rob Nicholson that 2013-14 “is shaping up to be a disaster due to recruit quotas that do not offset the rate of attrition, recruiting centre closures … and long-standing inefficiencies in the enrollment process.”

The information is contained in a brief given Nicholson Dec. 12 last year.

The paper resulted from a meeting in Toronto last November of 30 former senior reserve leaders from across Canada and supporters.

At the meeting, Reserves 2000 members identified the chief problem — recruiting quotas are set artificially low and the force’s bunged-up system can’t manage to meet even those.

John Selkirk, Reserve 2000’s executive-director, also appeared in December before the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence.

There, he called the situation “a crisis” and said the CF Recruiting Group is in “some turmoil, I guess is a kind word.”

As of this fall, halfway through the fiscal year, units should have signed up about half their allotments, but were at just 21 per cent.

The best bet now is that this will mean reserve units across the country will be short 700 to 750 soldiers.

The danger is that defence planners may seize upon the unmet quotas and further scale down the numbers of new recruits units are allotted in the next year.

Selkirk appeared to warn the committee of fudged numbers.

For instance, he said when the department says reserve pay costs about $587 million, at least half of that isn’t for pure reservists – called Class As, they are mostly students who put in a night a week at their units – but rather for so-called full-time reservists, or Class Bs, who are often assigned to headquarters.

While the advisory board said the military is still attracting fine candidates, the length of time it takes to sign up “will not stand the CF in good stead with the Millennial Generation.” It also says that recruiting group is “all too often … an afterthought at best and at worst a dumping ground for lesser performers…”

The report recommends the military offer conditional acceptances to good candidates, convene selection boards so that applicants can get their answer at the same time civilian universities may offer them places, and generally change its collective attitude.

Recruiters don’t have just one customer, the board says, but also “an implicit secondary role of connecting with Canadians.”

Applicants who aren’t accepted “are not ‘road kill’ … They are Canadians with a strong interest in the CF and who may, at a future date, become serving members or simply engage in public discourse favourable to the profession of arms in Canada.”

cblatchford@postmedia.com

Source: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/Inept+recruiting+system+costing+Canadian+Forces+kinds/9635246/story.html

 

[RCDtpr]

They've proven it can be done a lot faster.....when I went through the recruiting process in early 2007 the date from application to leaving for BMQ was just over a week.

 

[Rohandro]

They've proven it can be done a lot faster.....when I went through the recruiting process in early 2007 the date from application to leaving for BMQ was just over a week.

??? Where can I get some of this, who did you bribe and how much did you give them LOL

 

[SJantzi]

??? Where can I get some of this, who did you bribe and how much did you give them LOL

Seconded.. Wow total time so far is 3 years >.>

 

[KerryBlue]

??? Where can I get some of this, who did you bribe and how much did you give them LOL

During the height of Canada's war in Afghanistan this wasn't unheard of. I know a few people who were between a few weeks and a month. Peace time army with budget cuts is what we are in right now..

 

[verstrat10]

This is actually mind boggling, My process from start to finish was about ~5 months... and i had to go to Aircrew Selection. It makes me feel awful for the guys who have to wait that long.

 

[The_Falcon]

Sometimes delays are systemic, other times the fault lies with the applicants.  Hint...if you people can't read or understand the documents you have submitted, or you can't follow simple directions and fill out forms completely, the people handling your file WILL move on, and probably get around to looking at it on a Friday afternoon. 

I saw and experienced both.  As a file manager, the applicants who made my job easier, I moved through faster.  Applicants who made life difficult....went to the bottom of the pile.  Most other recruiters and file managers work the same way.

 

[Griffon]

Applicants, and the public in general, need to keep a few things in mind when talking about the recruiting process:

1) The economy is weak, while the CAF is simultaneously slowing recruiting.  This means more applications for fewer positions, meaning it will take longer to get in.
2) You are applying for a position in the military, not at Wal-Mart.  There is a significant amount of information goes through for each applicant, and this takes time.
3) The CAF recruits in a manner opposite of most employers: They accept and process all applications regardless of whether they are hiring.  The benefit to the applicant is that you will get processed, but you may have an excessive wait time as a result.
4) For people that say they have had an application for 3 years - is that a single application, or have you re-applied? The average is per application, not per applicant.
5) RMC entry is once per year.  People who apply early will be in the system longer.
6) Aircrew selection, MP boards, MARS boards - all the supplementary selection programs - extend timelines and impose selection windows, much like RMC does.  This extends wait times as well.

Is the system perfect? No.  Can parts of it be fixed? Yes, and I think they are trying to do that while keeping it as fair as possible.  I'm not sure how many thousands of applications are processed each year, but it's expensive, time consuming, and difficult to do in a manner that is fair to all involved.  And as Hatchet Man said, don't expect the RC to help if you can't help yourself...a positive attitude and a show of tempered determination can get you a long way. 

I'm afraid you just have to accept that, due to the nature of the occupation, it's going to take longer to get into the CAF than it'll take to get a job as a pipe-fitter or most other skilled trades.  But if you have the patience to wait out the process, that's just one more positive character trait that the CAF can expect you to bring to the table.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If we "only accepted the best" we wouldn't need warrior platoon.

 

[DAA]

Applicants, and the public in general, need to keep a few things in mind when talking about the recruiting process:

1) The economy is weak, while the CAF is simultaneously slowing recruiting.  This means more applications for fewer positions, meaning it will take longer to get in.
2) You are applying for a position in the military, not at Wal-Mart.  There is a significant amount of information goes through for each applicant, and this takes time.
3) The CAF recruits in a manner opposite of most employers: They accept and process all applications regardless of whether they are hiring.  The benefit to the applicant is that you will get processed, but you may have an excessive wait time as a result.
4) For people that say they have had an application for 3 years - is that a single application, or have you re-applied? The average is per application, not per applicant.
5) RMC entry is once per year.  People who apply early will be in the system longer.
6) Aircrew selection, MP boards, MARS boards - all the supplementary selection programs - extend timelines and impose selection windows, much like RMC does.  This extends wait times as well.

Is the system perfect? No.  Can parts of it be fixed? Yes, and I think they are trying to do that while keeping it as fair as possible.  I'm not sure how many thousands of applications are processed each year, but it's expensive, time consuming, and difficult to do in a manner that is fair to all involved.  And as Hatchet Man said, don't expect the RC to help if you can't help yourself...a positive attitude and a show of tempered determination can get you a long way. 

I'm afraid you just have to accept that, due to the nature of the occupation, it's going to take longer to get into the CAF than it'll take to get a job as a pipe-fitter or most other skilled trades.  But if you have the patience to wait out the process, that's just one more positive character trait that the CAF can expect you to bring to the table.

To address your comments........

1) Nope.  Recruiting numbers are consistent and based on forecasted attrition rates.  Applications are also steady and don't really fluctuate either.
2) Yes, there is a fair bit of information which is collected but the problem has nothing to do with volume.
3) Nope.  The CF does not process "every" application and some applicants will never be contacted
4) Most applicants, are not entirely "truthful" when they express their "time in the system" dissatisfaction.  There is usually a reason why, they just don't mention that.
5) True.  But people who apply early for ROTP end up having their application "shelved" until a later date.
6) Not a large group to draw conclusions from but yes, those occupations do have additional screening requirements.

They had a reasonable system in place but then decided to change to something else, so the wait times may very well increase or if may go the way of a "noncommittal" type of civilian model, "Thanks for applying and writing our tests.  Don't call us, we'll call you."

 

[Griffon]

Physical fitness is no longer assessed at the recruiter level, as it was deemed that too many otherwise strong applicants were discarded due to their lack of fitness.  Someone had the bright idea that the CAF could indoctrinate fitness into their lives at the taxpayer's expense.  I do not agree with this opinion.  I believe that an individual's intrinsic motivation to maintain fitness is a positive asset to an applicant, and that blaming the lack of fitness on society as a whole is a cop-out.  I am sure that Warrior Platoon has turned out a number of successful, productive, fit troops. I'm just not sure it was the best idea to remove fitness as a selection criteria, or that Warrior Platoon is really worth its cost.

But I digress.  Warrior Platoon hasn't made it harder to get in, it's made it easier.  Point for those that think it takes too long to get in...

 

[Griffon]

Nope.  Recruiting numbers are consistent and based on forecasted attrition rates.  Applications are also steady and don't really fluctuate either.

I was referring more to the comment of how quick it was to get in during Afghanistan c. 2007, and not so much the last two or three years.  The economy has really fallen off since then, and I was under the impression that intake has as well.

3) Nope.  The CF does not process "every" application and some applicants will never be contacted

I was of the understanding that applications were never rejected outright, as in no " Sorry, we aren't hiring right now, you can hold on to that piece of paper.  Have a nice day."I am aware that not all applicants are selected for further selection (i.e. CFAT, Medical, Interview), am I mistaken on this?

I do hope that the recruiting system can be made a little more efficient, we'll just have to wait and see what the changes bring us I guess.

Edit: My apologies for jumping in here, I just get frustrated at the lack of perspective many seem to have on what they're signing up for.  It should take longer than two weeks to get in, IMHO.  I'll jump back into my lane now...

 

[Remius]

CFRG...  :rage:

 

[DAA]

I was referring more to the comment of how quick it was to get in during Afghanistan c. 2007, and not so much the last two or three years.  The economy has really fallen off since then, and I was under the impression that intake has as well.

I was of the understanding that applications were never rejected outright, as in no " Sorry, we aren't hiring right now, you can hold on to that piece of paper.  Have a nice day."I am aware that not all applicants are selected for further selection (i.e. CFAT, Medical, Interview), am I mistaken on this?

I do hope that the recruiting system can be made a little more efficient, we'll just have to wait and see what the changes bring us I guess.

Edit: My apologies for jumping in here, I just get frustrated at the lack of perspective many seem to have on what they're signing up for.  It should take longer than two weeks to get in, IMHO.  I'll jump back into my lane now...

Intake did drop a fair bit but we still need in the area of 4.000+ a year, give or take.  Afghanistan really didn't play that big an impact, it was more the accelerated rate of attrition due to a boom in the economy out west that was more attractive to CF members.

The only thing an applicant will get today, is CFAT/TSD testing, nothing more other than, we'll call you.....maybe and even the testing isn't guaranteed.  No customer service that you or I experienced when we joined.  Just a simple "Thanks for showing up."

What frustrates the applicants most, is being told to expect a call and the call doesn't come, we'll send you an email and the email doesn't come, told to call back in x weeks and then told to call back in x months, told they did "well" when they really didn't, told process X will take 2-4 weeks when it's more like 2-4 months and the list goes on and on.

If only an applicant could get a "straight" or "reasonable" answer, it would probably help to solve allot of the problems.  But then again, managing applicants expectations, is not the strong suit of recruiting.

 

[Jarnhamar]

But then again, managing applicants expectations, is not the strong suit of recruiting.

But mangling is  ;D

 

[JSoff]

Intake did drop a fair bit but we still need in the area of 4.000+ a year, give or take.  Afghanistan really didn't play that big an impact, it was more the accelerated rate of attrition due to a boom in the economy out west that was more attractive to CF members.

The only thing an applicant will get today, is CFAT/TSD testing, nothing more other than, we'll call you.....maybe and even the testing isn't guaranteed.  No customer service that you or I experienced when we joined.  Just a simple "Thanks for showing up."

What frustrates the applicants most, is being told to expect a call and the call doesn't come, we'll send you an email and the email doesn't come, told to call back in x weeks and then told to call back in x months, told they did "well" when they really didn't, told process X will take 2-4 weeks when it's more like 2-4 months and the list goes on and on.

If only an applicant could get a "straight" or "reasonable" answer, it would probably help to solve allot of the problems.  But then again, managing applicants expectations, is not the strong suit of recruiting.

I think I can speak for myself and a few other applicants when I say its fairly off putting to hear, "Oh we'll get back to you within a month or so to schedule x appointment" and when you email your File Manager a month and x amount of days later because you still haven't heard anything and your references haven't been contacted you get the generic response. "we don't have an estimated date, but don't worry you're still being processed." Steward my main trade is in-demand and from what I heard it still has positions open for this fiscal year, but of course the lack of response from my Recruiting Center is frustrating and I can almost bet I probably wont be contacted for a few months. (But trying to keep my hopes up.)

 

[Transporter]

Many years ago, I considered leaving the CF to join the Australian Defence Force. I was given an ADF recruitment web address by an ADF contact I had met here in Canada and I sent them an email with a bunch of questions about how the enrollment process works, etc. I had a response in less than 24 hrs, complete with explicit guidance on everything I needed to do to make it happen. I was also provided a POC name and phone number should I have any additional questions. I thought that was pretty slick.

 

[dimsum]

Many years ago, I considered leaving the CF to join the Australian Defence Force. I was given an ADF recruitment web address by an ADF contact I had met here in Canada and I sent them an email with a bunch of questions about how the enrollment process works, etc. I had a response in less than 24 hrs, complete with explicit guidance on everything I needed to do to make it happen. I was also provided a POC name and phone number should I have any additional questions. I thought that was pretty slick.

Unfortunately that isn't always the case anymore, according to a son of a co-worker here.  His application to join the ADF has been over a year with much of the same issues that have been mentioned in this thread.  I think this is a relatively new thing, but I've gathered that the ADF has left Recruiting to another federal department and so has little (if any) control over processing, etc.  There are ADF members in recruiting, but they are basically there to answer questions regarding the military.

Lateral transfers, what little there is these days, may be a different story but even then, those have dried up quite a bit (at least for the RAAF.) 

 

[MacIssac]

My brother joined for ACISS trade in summer 2013 and was in BMQ by September but he was from a rural area, where apparently that's where CAF hires more from, (history aspect compared to inner cities) which gives me hope that maybe its just a backlog of recruits. I applied in Jan, and my file manager said I am on the list to be called after April 1st for medical and interview - I figure its just a slow time as of lately, but cannot speak for those who have had to wait over a year or two.