CFAT Rewrite

[BlueFalcon109]

I’m not a Recruiter, so this is strictly me questioning the reasoning in general here.

But why is it fair for someone to get to do the test again simply because they want a better score, when the majority of applicants went in for their trade, wrote the test blind and waited? I hardly think it’s appropriate for someone to have the advantage of writing the test more than once when they performed satisfactorily the first time around. If an applicant failed to qualify for any (or all) of their trade selections, or were super-sick and off their game or something, that’s one thing. But being allowed to rewrite solely based on the fact that an applicant wants to try and gain an upper hand on what may, or may not, take place during selection is really questionable, as far as I’m concerned.

I too am not an expert, but I do agree with your sentiment. In my opinion, it's best to avoid creating this scenario in the first place. I feel like the CFAT should be a static bar where you either get a high enough score to pass or fail for the trade you want, and that's that. Especially for trades that require job specific testing, such as the subsequent MOST test or Aircrew Selection. If you have to dynamically raise or lower the cut off threshold of something, it should be the job specific aptitude test. The CFAT should just be used as an indicator for the CAF to see which candidates are worth spending the extra money on for additional testing (e.g. paying for all the expenses to send a candidate to do the two days of Aircrew Selection at Trenton). To retroactively rip a candidate out of the application process who did above average and scored competitively on their MOST or Aircrew selection because they scored 50/60 on their CFAT while leaving another candidate in the pool who got 52/60 on their CFAT, but scored significantly lower than the disqualified candidate on their job-specific aptitude test sure as heck doesn't really seem that fair or help you get the best candidate for the job either.

 

[Winds]

BeyondTheNow,

I'm not going to defend the use of the CFAT for comparing applicants but anyone can request to write the test a 2nd time, so I'm not sure where the concern over fairness comes from.

BlueFalcon109,

I understand your frustration but as I stated before, the applicant pool for AEC significantly changed when Pilot (DEO) was Closed for processing. Many former Pilot applicants consequently changed their occupation choices to ACSO and AEC. If, as you stated before, you did not meet the cut-off for Pilot on Aircrew Selection, then how do you reckon that the people who are currently out scoring you on the Competition List have a "significantly lower" Aircrew Selection score than you? Anyone who was processed for Pilot has a higher Aircrew score than you do. I don't want to sound harsh but that's the facts.

 

[BlueFalcon109]

BeyondTheNow,

I'm not going to defend the use of the CFAT for comparing applicants but anyone can request to write the test a 2nd time, so I'm not sure where the concern over fairness comes from.

BlueFalcon109,

I understand your frustration but as I stated before, the applicant pool for AEC significantly changed when Pilot (DEO) was Closed for processing. Many former Pilot applicants consequently changed their occupation choices to ACSO and AEC. If, as you stated before, you did not meet the cut-off for Pilot on Aircrew Selection, then how do you reckon that the people who are currently out scoring you on the Competition List have a "significantly lower" Aircrew Selection score than you? Anyone who was processed for Pilot has a higher Aircrew score than you do. I don't want to sound harsh but that's the facts.

That's a fair point winds_13, if everyone is allowed to rewrite the CFAT for a second time, then it's a level playing field in my opinion. Also, I completely agree with you on your second point directed towards me. I genuinely misinterpreted your initial reply to me last week. I assumed that it was strictly current applicants who have not yet made it to the competition list. If it's applicants who were merit listed as pilots then deciding to switch to AEC or ACSO, then you're right, and so is the CAF. Why keep processing applicants for those roles when they've got an abundance of pilot quality applicants already on the competition list waiting to switch over?

 

[BeyondTheNow]

BeyondTheNow,

I'm not going to defend the use of the CFAT for comparing applicants but anyone can request to write the test a 2nd time, so I'm not sure where the concern over fairness comes from.

BlueFalcon109,

I understand your frustration but as I stated before, the applicant pool for AEC significantly changed when Pilot (DEO) was Closed for processing. Many former Pilot applicants consequently changed their occupation choices to ACSO and AEC. If, as you stated before, you did not meet the cut-off for Pilot on Aircrew Selection, then how do you reckon that the people who are currently out scoring you on the Competition List have a "significantly lower" Aircrew Selection score than you? Anyone who was processed for Pilot has a higher Aircrew score than you do. I don't want to sound harsh but that's the facts.

It's an aptitude test. Sure, people can have an idea of what types of questions will be on it and can brush up on certain things ahead of time, but it's to measure aptitude and to make sure the candidate has a solid enough grasp on what will be required for their trade. As soon as an individual writes it more than once, it's no longer simply an aptitude test--it then becomes a practice run the first time around, which is an absolute advantage as I see it.

Edit to add: And yes, I'm aware that the tests vary. (i.e. layout and/or order of questions in each section, etc.) But there's still a substantial grasp obtained, as well as getting used to time required and expectation, setting/environment etc. Those are all advantages, even if the candidate can't recall each question specifically.

 

[garb811]

One other thing... 

There seems to be the presumption that if someone rewrites the CFAT, they are automatically going to increase their score. This speaks to what BTN is saying; the writer has already had a trial run, has an idea of where they went wrong and forms the belief that if they write it again, they are going to automatically do better because they can focus on "x" in prep, do better time management in writing etc.

But a word of warning, there is also the possibility that your score could drop. The CFAT isn't a "best of" thing, where they take the best result and use that, the score you get on the second CFAT becomes your score, whether that is an increase or a decrease. Someone with a competitive score re-writing the CFAT voluntarily to try to milk a few extra points out of it to try to become just that little bit more competitive could very well end up shooting them-self in the foot and end up in a position where they just aren't competitive at all.

 

[r.k89]

BeyondTheNow,

I'm not going to defend the use of the CFAT for comparing applicants but anyone can request to write the test a 2nd time, so I'm not sure where the concern over fairness comes from.

BlueFalcon109,

I understand your frustration but as I stated before, the applicant pool for AEC significantly changed when Pilot (DEO) was Closed for processing. Many former Pilot applicants consequently changed their occupation choices to ACSO and AEC. If, as you stated before, you did not meet the cut-off for Pilot on Aircrew Selection, then how do you reckon that the people who are currently out scoring you on the Competition List have a "significantly lower" Aircrew Selection score than you? Anyone who was processed for Pilot has a higher Aircrew score than you do. I don't want to sound harsh but that's the facts.

Hi,
Do you know more info about how ACS is scored?  Overall score or different tests for each occupation. I passed only for AEC but with what looked like high score. But then a some of ppl who wrote with me passed both Acso and AEC , so I assumed they automatically have higher score than me and I would not be competitive. But there was a guy who wanted AEC but failed for it and at same time passed for Acso( which from what I understand has higher required overall score). So in selection do they look for specific score for occupation selected or just overall?

 

[BlueFalcon109]

Hi,
Do you know more info about how ACS is scored?  Overall score or different tests for each occupation. I passed only for AEC but with what looked like high score. But then a some of ppl who wrote with me passed both Acso and AEC , so I assumed they automatically have higher score than me and I would not be competitive. But there was a guy who wanted AEC but failed for it and at same time passed for Acso( which from what I understand has higher required overall score). So in selection do they look for specific score for occupation selected or just overall?

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but perhaps Spc_cdt's post (3rd from the top on page 35) can shed some light on what you're asking.

https://army.ca/forums/threads/37070.850.html

 

[mz589]

Hi All,

I'm hoping someone might be able to answer some questions/offer guidance on re-writing the CFAT.

My son who is 17 wrote it today but did not qualify for officer as he had hoped, he was told he can re-write it.

Is there a limit as to how many times you can write it and is there a maximum number of times that you can re-write it?  I am just wondering if I should direct him to post secondary first and then write it once he has some life experience/higher education under his belt. The concern is that if he does not qualify again after rewriting that he will not be able to try it again in the future.

Any direction is greatly appreciated.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Hi All,

I'm hoping someone might be able to answer some questions/offer guidance on re-writing the CFAT.

My son who is 17 wrote it today but did not qualify for officer as he had hoped, he was told he can re-write it.

Is there a limit as to how many times you can write it and is there a maximum number of times that you can re-write it?  I am just wondering if I should direct him to post secondary first and then write it once he has some life experience/higher education under his belt. The concern is that if he does not qualify again after rewriting that he will not be able to try it again in the future.

Any direction is greatly appreciated.

I believe the maximum is 3, but there’s some caveats to that.

...In order to be eligible to write the aptitude test a third time you must be registered in a substantial academic program at the post-secondary level (since the last time you wrote the test) and experiencing no apparent difficulty. With proof that you are successfully completing post secondary education Recruiting staff can submit a request for a file review and decision on your case...

Out of curiosity, is he pursuing Officer because he only wants what he perceives to be ‘management’ in general, or is he looking at Officer because he’s genuinely interested in a trade that’s only for Officers?—so there’s a specific job that’s captured his attention.

The reason I ask is because if he’s not qualifying for Officer, but is interested in leadership positions, then he needs to be aware that there are still plenty of those as a NCM.

 

[mz589]

I believe the maximum is 3, but there’s some caveats to that.

Out of curiosity, is he pursuing Officer because he only wants what he perceives to be management in general, or is he looking at Officer because he’s genuinely interested in a trade that’s only for Officers?—so there’s a specific job that’s captured his attention.

The reason I ask is because if he’s not qualifying for Officer, but is interested in leadership positions, then he needs to be aware that there are still plenty of those as a NCM.

Thank you for the reply BeyondTheNow, exactly the info I was looking for. I will have to have a talk with him about his options at this point. He got a wake up call from the test and subsequently learned a valuable lesson - not all things come easy beyond high school.

In answer to your question, I would say it is probably a bit of both. He was hoping for the AERE trade, but the more he has investigated the career choices on the website the more he had interest in other Officer trades as well. Mostly he seemed upset about "not being able to go to the forces"  I will give him some time to realize that is not entirely the case as there are other options and as you pointed out management opportunities at the NCM level.

 

[Winds]

Mz589, if your son is still serious about AERE, he should be aiming around the 90th percentile (officer) on the CFAT. It is one of the most competitive trades for ROTP and the CFAT does have weight towards selection.

 

[mz589]

Mz589, if your son is still serious about AERE, he should be aiming around the 90th percentile (officer) on the CFAT. It is one of the most competitive trades for ROTP and the CFAT does have weight towards selection.

Thanks winds_13.

I believe is still serious I believe as he is also applying to University for Aerospace engineering - but then again, he is still only 17. He is mature for his age but obviously lacking in experience.

Any recommendations on what to do to improve his score? We have downloaded the CFAT trainer app.

 

[Winds]

My best advice is to consult the practice test on Forces.ca website (found under "How to join"). The current practice test is very similar in difficulty and question type to the test itself. He's also done the test once already, so he should have a very good idea what types of questions to expect. The easiest portion to improve on is the Problem Solving... basically brush up on his math skills. Best of luck.

The app is a 3rd party resource made by a company without access to the test. I cannot vouch for it's effectiveness but have heard it's a decent resource.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Thank you for the reply BeyondTheNow, exactly the info I was looking for. I will have to have a talk with him about his options at this point. He got a wake up call from the test and subsequently learned a valuable lesson - not all things come easy beyond high school.

In answer to your question, I would say it is probably a bit of both. He was hoping for the AERE trade, but the more he has investigated the career choices on the website the more he had interest in other Officer trades as well. Mostly he seemed upset about "not being able to go to the forces"  I will give him some time to realize that is not entirely the case as there are other options and as you pointed out management opportunities at the NCM level.

Remind him that if joining is something he really wants to do, just because he didn't qualify for the trade(s) he initially wanted, doesn't mean he's not fit to serve. While I don't advise him choosing just anything in order to get in, there are many other opportunities which might appeal to him. Several trades are in the red right now, meaning positions are under-manned and bodies are needed.

I didn't get the trade I originally applied for. Additional steps beyond the standard hiring process were required and I tanked at the very end of the testing--totally choked. I was extremely disappointed in myself. While I didn't initially plan to be where I am now, in hindsight, it's probably a better fit. 

 

[Loachman]

A little off-topic, mz589, but your son really should sign up here and explore for himself. He'll benefit much more from that.

There's a ton of valuable information here for him to carve through.

It's fashionable these days for parents to be much more helpful than parents in the past - and I am not unguilty of that myself - but we all need to let them find there own way.

Even at seventeen, which was my age when I leapt in as a Reserve Infantryman.

Especially if they want to be Officers.

 

[mz589]

A little off-topic, mz589, but your son really should sign up here and explore for himself. He'll benefit much more from that.

There's a ton of valuable information here for him to carve through.

It's fashionable these days for parents to be much more helpful than parents in the past - and I am not unguilty of that myself - but we all need to let them find there own way.

Even at seventeen, which was my age when I leapt in as a Reserve Infantryman.

Especially if they want to be Officers.

A fair point Loachman.

 

[JAF_03]

I had a question about a rewrite, so basically I didn’t qualify for any trade yesterday especially for armoured Recce. I was told I had to wait 30 days until I can request a rewrite in which my question is will I be sent anything in order to schedule my rewrite in 3 Months or can I just do it regularly via email.

 

[PMedMoe]

I had a question about a rewrite, so basically I didn’t qualify for any trade yesterday especially for armoured Recce. I was told I had to wait 30 days until I can request a rewrite in which my question is will I be sent anything in order to schedule my rewrite in 3 Months or can I just do it regularly via email.

If you didn't qualify for any trade, I would suggest some academic upgrading before doing a rewrite.

 

[JAF_03]

If you didn't qualify for any trade, I would suggest some academic upgrading before doing a rewrite.

I mean I’m taking this time to focus on the problem solving since that was the area I was told I should focus on more. I getting a lot of help in which hopefully will be sufficient for my rewrite

 

[Jarnhamar]

I mean I’m taking this time to focus on the problem solving since that was the area I was told I should focus on more. I getting a lot of help in which hopefully will be sufficient for my rewrite

You shouldn't cross your fingers and hope for the best.

If you didn't qualify for any trade that is a very low score. It's not great dude. But it's not the end of the world. You should take PMedMoe's advice and consider some serious academic upgrading and do your best to qualify for as many trades as you can.

You might spend a few years as an armored crewman but then want to try something else.

A close friend of mine, like you, failed to qualify for any trade. He did some academic upgrading and became a police officer (which is a much higher bar than the CAF I'd say).

There's some apps you can download to help too.