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CANSOFCOM encounter with a civilian in Port Hawkesbury, N.S.

Mr Cudmore in light of the discussion here how do you feel about what happened?

While perhaps not insinuating it happened with this story, do you think more and more people these days are approaching police/military with cameras rolling and attempting to elicit some kind of response to either make it to the news or to blog/vlog about?

I'm in agreement with Strike, it sounded like the guy had a canned response prepared and was just waiting for it. Kinda reminds me of professional soccer in a way.


I found the discussion about if/when people can have their picture taken very interesting. I absolutely hate having my picture taken without permission and especially having people add my picture to their facebook.
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
I absolutely hate having my picture taken without permission and especially having people add my picture to their facebook.
It's the price you pay for being so studly.    ;)
 
Strike said:
As for a "reasonable expectation of privacy," examples are given in the Privacy Act, but they are just that, examples.  It could be argued that having a cordon, security or police sitting on the edge of the property would be a sign that the occupants have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

To the contrary - once you've got a large group of public officers in a place, the expectation of privacy decreases - there's obviously something of public interest going on there.

 
This may be of interest to the discussion.

"There is no law in Canada that prevents a member of the public from taking photographs or video in a public place (other than some limitations related to sensitive defense installations)"
http://blog.privacylawyer.ca/2012/08/photographing-and-filming-police.html#uds-search-results

 
mariomike said:
This may be of interest to the discussion.

"There is no law in Canada that prevents a member of the public from taking photographs or video in a public place (other than some limitations related to sensitive defense installations)"
http://blog.privacylawyer.ca/2012/08/photographing-and-filming-police.html#uds-search-results

Amen to that.

We need to encourage more picture taking of (and bragging about) our troops by members of the public IMHO. And as soldiers, we need to be aware of what we should, and shouldn't, say to them and how.
 
daftandbarmy said:
We need to encourage more picture taking of (and bragging about) our troops by members of the public IMHO. And as soldiers, we need to be aware of what we should, and shouldn't, say to them and how.

Sure, but when those troops are involved in clandestine operations, do you want their faces all over Youtube and Instagram? There's a reason why bravery/valour/meritorious service decorations say "Awarded to a member of CANSOFCOM". Bad people want to do bad things to our soldiers, especially special operators and are just waiting for the opportunity like you suggest.
 
PuckChaser said:
Sure, but when those troops are involved in clandestine operations, do you want their faces all over Youtube and Instagram? There's a reason why bravery/valour/meritorious service decorations say "Awarded to a member of CANSOFCOM". Bad people want to do bad things to our soldiers, especially special operators and are just waiting for the opportunity like you suggest.
Bottom line is if your operating in view of the public you have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
OPSEC goes out the door in a public environment.
How many police recently that have stepped over the line wish that being filmed was illegal?
Don't mistake this last statement to think that I'm implying most police officers are bad apples, because my view is completely the opposite.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Cudmore,
Don't worry about it, keep posting.

If you could make everyone happy then you'd be boring......
Bruce
army.ca Staff
What he and others have said - it's good to see a working reporter comfortable enough to explain the how's and why's of the craft.
 
Hey folks,

Thanks for the renewed welcome.
Here's the thing, I saw Westbrook's Youtube posting, because someone I am Facebook friends with in Ottawa had seen it on one of his friend's pages and that guy was friends with Westbrook's wife's sister, if i have that right.
So, here's the point of saying that: Cameras are ubiqutious, and with the Internet, the pictures they take are everywhere, too.
You pretty much can not do anything anywhere in public and expect that it's safe from exposure.  And if what you have done is questionable, or, you have a hater on your hands, you can expect things to get nasty.
But there's no indication of malice on Westbrook's part than I am aware of.  He tells me he was just garden variety curious, and I believe him.
I think he makes audio recordings of all of his public photgraphy specifcially because sometimes people (and cops) get antsy about having cameras about.
I guess he feels its protection, or evidence, if he should get shoved about by a rookie traffic cop or some such. 
But none of that is relevant to this story, Westbrook says, because no matter what he said, no matter who he was, he believes at law he had a right to be there and to do what he was doing.
He says he got his back up (and got snippy, himself) once the MP started name-dropping the RCMP det commander.
He says he felt he was being threatened with unlawful arrest.
If I could slip off my reporter's hat for one moment, the only thing I would point out is that all it took was one nosy local with a camera to lift the lid on a CANSOFCOM op. And those are just the times we live in.














 
cudmore said:
If I could slip off my reporter's hat for one moment, the only thing I would point out is that all it took was one nosy local with a camera to lift the lid on a CANSOFCOM op. And those are just the times we live in.
Actually if it wasn't for the ineptness of "Adam", this wouldn't have been a story at all most likely, nosy local or not.  At best it would have been a local interest story at Tim's the next morning when he started talking about the strange goings on at the defunct call center.
 
JayB said:
He may have been, but he identified himself in the video as a professional photographer, probably one of the reasons he was dealt with the way he was...

So what exactly constitutes a "professional photographer" these days? If my blog has advertizing and I post my pictures there does that count?
 
Colin P said:
So what exactly constitutes a "professional photographer" these days? If my blog has advertizing and I post my pictures there does that count?

It does for this guy, I believe someone here google'd his name and he's got nothing published. Anyone can buy a DSLR camera nowadays and be a professional photographer.
 
PuckChaser said:
It does for this guy, I believe someone here google'd his name and he's got nothing published. Anyone can buy a DSLR camera nowadays and be a professional photographer.

As long as said anyone reports his / her "professional" income to Revenue Canada (or whatever the heck the call it these days.
 
cudmore said:
Hey folks,

Thanks for the renewed welcome.
Here's the thing, I saw Westbrook's Youtube posting, because someone I am Facebook friends with in Ottawa had seen it on one of his friend's pages and that guy was friends with Westbrook's wife's sister, if i have that right.
So, here's the point of saying that: Cameras are ubiqutious, and with the Internet, the pictures they take are everywhere, too.
You pretty much can not do anything anywhere in public and expect that it's safe from exposure.  And if what you have done is questionable, or, you have a hater on your hands, you can expect things to get nasty.
But there's no indication of malice on Westbrook's part than I am aware of.  He tells me he was just garden variety curious, and I believe him.
I think he makes audio recordings of all of his public photgraphy specifcially because sometimes people (and cops) get antsy about having cameras about.
I guess he feels its protection, or evidence, if he should get shoved about by a rookie traffic cop or some such. 
But none of that is relevant to this story, Westbrook says, because no matter what he said, no matter who he was, he believes at law he had a right to be there and to do what he was doing.
He says he got his back up (and got snippy, himself) once the MP started name-dropping the RCMP det commander.
He says he felt he was being threatened with unlawful arrest.
If I could slip off my reporter's hat for one moment, the only thing I would point out is that all it took was one nosy local with a camera to lift the lid on a CANSOFCOM op. And those are just the times we live in.

Hilarious...

Not that I've ever been 'special' (except in that endearing 'short bus' kind of way), but some strategies I and others have employed fairly successfully in similar situations include:

-Tell him the truth: "this is  a military exercise and if you call (have a number handy where civvies can call for more info) you can find out more about what's going on". This obviously needs to be part of a contingency plan in the op order development process.

-Offer to take the guy's picture in front of a piece of  nondescript machinery vs. people's faces. People love to get their photos taken beside army trucks and things like that

-Hand him a cigarette, chocolate bar etc and talk to him and be genuinely interested in what he does. Get his contact information and offer to connect him up with people who can feed him some information later (needs to be followed up of course). I used to keep dog biscuits and boiled sweets in my pocket because the people who usually bounced us accidentally were either walking their dogs or chasing their kids.

-Have a non-descript cover story available e.g., Keep some recruiting business cards in your pockets and hand him one and say you are practising for some kind of upcoming display. This can be risky - especially if it's not the truth.

-Call for backup and keep the guy busy in conversation until relieved by a PAFO or someone else on the op who can talk to the guy while you get on with the business. I've seen people like Padres, RSMs and Paymasters be good at this kind of thing if there are no PAFOs around. Of course this, once again, would require some pre-planning.

- This was always a good one... Civvy asks soldier "Hey, what's going on here?". Soldier says "Well, what do YOU think it looks like?' (with the usual eye roll). Take it from there... usually they say something like 'Oh, looks like a military exercise or something', then you can say, 'Yep, we'll be done here pretty soon.'

And, of course, the most honest response to the question 'What are you doing here' is usually 'Honestly buddy, I have no friggin' idea. I just shut up and do what I'm told'  ;D
 
daftandbarmy said:
Hilarious...

Not that I've ever been 'special' (except in that endearing 'short bus' kind of way), but some strategies I and others have employed fairly successfully in similar situations include:

-Tell him the truth: "this is  a military exercise and if you call (have a number handy where civvies can call for more info) you can find out more about what's going on". This obviously needs to be part of a contingency plan in the op order development process.

-Offer to take the guy's picture in front of a piece of  nondescript machinery vs. people's faces. People love to get their photos taken beside army trucks and things like that

-Hand him a cigarette, chocolate bar etc and talk to him and be genuinely interested in what he does. Get his contact information and offer to connect him up with people who can feed him some information later (needs to be followed up of course). I used to keep dog biscuits and boiled sweets in my pocket because the people who usually bounced us accidentally were either walking their dogs or chasing their kids.

-Have a non-descript cover story available e.g., Keep some recruiting business cards in your pockets and hand him one and say you are practising for some kind of upcoming display. This can be risky - especially if it's not the truth.

-Call for backup and keep the guy busy in conversation until relieved by a PAFO or someone else on the op who can talk to the guy while you get on with the business. I've seen people like Padres, RSMs and Paymasters be good at this kind of thing if there are no PAFOs around. Of course this, once again, would require some pre-planning.

- This was always a good one... Civvy asks soldier "Hey, what's going on here?". Soldier says "Well, what do YOU think it looks like?' (with the usual eye roll). Take it from there... usually they say something like 'Oh, looks like a military exercise or something', then you can say, 'Yep, we'll be done here pretty soon.'

And, of course, the most honest response to the question 'What are you doing here' is usually 'Honestly buddy, I have no friggin' idea. I just shut up and do what I'm told'  ;D
Very good ideas (actually aide-memoire-able, if that's a word), but if it's a peacetime training exercise, there's WAY too much that can go wrong if you deliberately lie and are found out - better to say nothing or be correct without going into detail than to be caught lying.  Ask a Senator  ;)
 
milnews.ca said:
Very good ideas (actually aide-memoire-able, if that's a word), but if it's a peacetime training exercise, there's WAY too much that can go wrong if you deliberately lie and are found out - better to say nothing or be correct without going into detail than to be caught lying.  Ask a Senator  ;)

It's OK, this was over 20 years ago, on operations, and way beyond Canada's 200 mile limit ;D
 
daftandbarmy said:
It's OK, this was over 20 years ago, on operations, and way beyond Canada's 200 mile limit ;D
I figured "for real" would be pretty different than peacetime.  Still, a pretty good list - thanks for sharing.
 
daftandbarmy said:
Hilarious...

Not that I've ever been 'special' (except in that endearing 'short bus' kind of way), but some strategies I and others have employed fairly successfully in similar situations include:

-Tell him the truth: "this is  a military exercise and if you call (have a number handy where civvies can call for more info) you can find out more about what's going on". This obviously needs to be part of a contingency plan in the op order development process.

-Offer to take the guy's picture in front of a piece of  nondescript machinery vs. people's faces. People love to get their photos taken beside army trucks and things like that

-Hand him a cigarette, chocolate bar etc and talk to him and be genuinely interested in what he does. Get his contact information and offer to connect him up with people who can feed him some information later (needs to be followed up of course). I used to keep dog biscuits and boiled sweets in my pocket because the people who usually bounced us accidentally were either walking their dogs or chasing their kids.

-Have a non-descript cover story available e.g., Keep some recruiting business cards in your pockets and hand him one and say you are practising for some kind of upcoming display. This can be risky - especially if it's not the truth.

-Call for backup and keep the guy busy in conversation until relieved by a PAFO or someone else on the op who can talk to the guy while you get on with the business. I've seen people like Padres, RSMs and Paymasters be good at this kind of thing if there are no PAFOs around. Of course this, once again, would require some pre-planning.

- This was always a good one... Civvy asks soldier "Hey, what's going on here?". Soldier says "Well, what do YOU think it looks like?' (with the usual eye roll). Take it from there... usually they say something like 'Oh, looks like a military exercise or something', then you can say, 'Yep, we'll be done here pretty soon.'

And, of course, the most honest response to the question 'What are you doing here' is usually 'Honestly buddy, I have no friggin' idea. I just shut up and do what I'm told'  ;D

Hit the nail on the head D&B, the problem is a lot of people suffer from a severe lack of "people skills" so instead of just standing there and chatting with the guy for a bit in a friendly tone, these guys made it seem like they were trying to hide something.  I think some friendly conversation with this fellow could have gone a long way to de-escalating this situation. 
 
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