Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation

[a_majoor]

An interesting counterpart to this discussion is the growth of the so called "Alt Right", which is still a rather nebulous concept, but generally embraces nationalism vs globalism, and advocates attaching to some sort of identity or identifier (I have seen "Alt-White", which is pretty much like it sounds, "Alt-West" which often involves a strong Christian identity component as they define Christianity as one of the pillars of Western civilization, and even "Alt-Lite", who are more or less people who are not satisfied with the way things are arranged right now, but have not chosen an "identity", so are essentially without a "tribe").

In some senses this is a mirror image of leftist identity politics, where the traditional memes of liberalism (properly identified), Individual liberty, freedom of speech and association, unfettered use of property and the Rule of Law are essentially linked to the Alt-Right identity group of choice. A typical Alt West argument would suggest that liberalism can only exist in Christian societies since these societies are the ones which developed these ideas and institutions in the first place.

This is a riff from Samuel Huntington's ideas developed in the The Clash of Civilizations, which spoke of "Civilizations" as being defined by their interpretation of ideas like human rights, justice, rule of law and the role of citizens in society. Certainly there is a strong case that modern Progressivism and Socialism in general are alien ideas to Enlightenment Western civilizations, built as they are on individualism rather than collectivism. One can argue that manifestations like the Brexit and Donald Trump are expressions of the "Alt-Right", and symbols of its growth and development.

In long discussions over coffee with my politically minded friends they mostly discount the idea that Canada's political system or institutional culture would support or allow the rise of a Canadian Donald Trump, which suggests that these feelings of disconnect among younger Canadians will have different outlets; possibly ones we would rather not see.....

 

[Kirkhill]

exactly, it's all negative teaching and guilt complexing

No, no.  It's deprogramming.  What you and I learned was propaganda.  /sarcasm

 

[biernini]

An interesting counterpart to this discussion is the growth of the so called "Alt Right", which is still a rather nebulous concept, but generally embraces nationalism vs globalism, and advocates attaching to some sort of identity or identifier (I have seen "Alt-White", which is pretty much like it sounds, "Alt-West" which often involves a strong Christian identity component as they define Christianity as one of the pillars of Western civilization, and even "Alt-Lite", who are more or less people who are not satisfied with the way things are arranged right now, but have not chosen an "identity", so are essentially without a "tribe").

In some senses this is a mirror image of leftist identity politics, where the traditional memes of liberalism (properly identified), Individual liberty, freedom of speech and association, unfettered use of property and the Rule of Law are essentially linked to the Alt-Right identity group of choice. A typical Alt West argument would suggest that liberalism can only exist in Christian societies since these societies are the ones which developed these ideas and institutions in the first place.

This is a riff from Samuel Huntington's ideas developed in the The Clash of Civilizations, which spoke of "Civilizations" as being defined by their interpretation of ideas like human rights, justice, rule of law and the role of citizens in society. Certainly there is a strong case that modern Progressivism and Socialism in general are alien ideas to Enlightenment Western civilizations, built as they are on individualism rather than collectivism. One can argue that manifestations like the Brexit and Donald Trump are expressions of the "Alt-Right", and symbols of its growth and development.

In long discussions over coffee with my politically minded friends they mostly discount the idea that Canada's political system or institutional culture would support or allow the rise of a Canadian Donald Trump, which suggests that these feelings of disconnect among younger Canadians will have different outlets; possibly ones we would rather not see.....

You're like the chiral version of Walter Sobchak, where instead of everything being about the tragedy of the war in Vietnam everything is instead about the dangers of leftists, progressives and socialists.

Which I still find rather funny considering Western militaries are some of the most progressive and socialist institutions on the planet.

Be that as it all may, Canadian millenials are likely less patriotic for many of the same reasons that at least one modern generation before was likely less patriotic; that generation would be the 'boomers during their early adulthood.  If a powerful subset of one's parents and parents' parents have more or less openly conspired with the blessing of the state to leave behind a generally less secure, less generally prosperous world (which isn't really a subjective matter of education) then it can be hardly surprising that uplifting notions like good national character no matter how true bring little more than cold comfort, if not sneers of derision.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Vietnam war might have been short circuited if Truman had not supported the French re-claiming it's colonies, the US resisted getting drawn in till it became evident that the Communists had no such concerns. Chin Peng confirmed in his book that Communist China did have a "domino plan" for SE Asia. Where the US failed was in exploiting the historical tensions between China and Vietnam. By 1973, North Vietnam had exhausted itself, had the US remained in south Vietnam, the peace treaty would have held and perhaps we would be seeing a reunification of the country under a less authoritarian government. The US worried far more about civilian causality than the North Vietnamese government ever did. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

But now, looking at what Vietnam has become today.  Is it a nasty country?  Are the people oppressed or their neighbors as in NK?  I have never travelled there, or intend to but in speaking with westerners who choose to live there nowadays, they speak well of the place.  :dunno:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

yes it has come a long way, a benevolent dictatorship, as long as you don't piss off the government or someone connected, they leave you alone. However a South Vietnamese government would have gotten to this point likely in the late 80's looking very much like South Korea. hard to say what would have happened in the North, that region was the "breadbasket" of the country, so unless they badly screwed up they would not starve, mind you North Korea used to be as well.

 

[a_majoor]

You're like the chiral version of Walter Sobchak, where instead of everything being about the tragedy of the war in Vietnam everything is instead about the dangers of leftists, progressives and socialists.

There are about 100 million ghosts from the 20th century who would like to speak to you about the dangers of Leftists, Progressives and Socialists.

 

[biernini]

Hands up from anyone who thinks Millenials don't already know this, and have known this for years now? And yet we have hundreds of thousands of third world villagers on temporary work visas to fill alleged labour shortages, also something very well known by those whiny, unpatriotic Millenials.

 

[biernini]

There are about 100 million ghosts from the 20th century who would like to speak to you about the dangers of Leftists, Progressives and Socialists.

Pardon me, but somehow I don't think Millenials who are fed up with neoliberal economics, neoconservative foreign policy and politics beholden to both are on some greasy slope to genocide. Colour me crazy.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Oh, but they are.

It always starts out with good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo.  But some people don't want to go along, so they must be forced.  And they resist further, so they must be forced more strongly.  Collectivist solutions inevitably require a degree of totalitarianism, which promotes recourse to tyranny.

And one greasy slope later - as has happened so often before - there is your democide (genocide is the wrong term).

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

You know, Brad, I am not a Millenial, not by a long shot (unless you are basing yourself on the past millennium  ;D), but you are starting to sound like Yoda: "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger to hate and hate, to suffering!"

I am sorry, but good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo is how every new generation has seen the world, and to me that is a positive, not a dangerous slippery slope. Without it no one gets a drive to try and make things better. Satisfaction with the status quo through all generations would have kept us all nomadic hunter-gatherers tribes in Africa.

So I for one am glad that the younger generations have always pushed against the current one's way of doing things, as have we. Has it led at time in some bad directions that resulted in atrocities? Yes, but as much from the leftist, progressives and socialists as from the rightist, conservatives and fascists to be frank.

As for the Millenials themselves, I have two sons who are from that generation. I get to interact with them and their friends all the time and must say that they impress me as being just as we were at their age. So they are not quite as patriotic as we were (I would say bull to that one: look at them rooting for Canada at the olympics or World cups). What did we expect: they are the first generation that has been raised with wonderful tools that gives them access not only to everything that is going on in the world around them, but to communicating in a social way with the ordinary people of all nations. It's only normal that they would take a world view first. It does not means they would not volunteer en masse to serve if our country was somehow threatened. I suspect they would. 

 

[Jed]

You know, Brad, I am not a Millenial, not by a long shot (unless you are basing yourself on the past millennium  ;D), but you are starting to sound like Yoda: "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger to hate and hate, to suffering!"

I am sorry, but good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo is how every new generation has seen the world, and to me that is a positive, not a dangerous slippery slope. Without it no one gets a drive to try and make things better. Satisfaction with the status quo through all generations would have kept us all nomadic hunter-gatherers tribes in Africa.

So I for one am glad that the younger generations have always pushed against the current one's way of doing things, as have we. Has it led at time in some bad directions that resulted in atrocities? Yes, but as much from the leftist, progressives and socialists as from the rightist, conservatives and fascists to be frank.

As for the Millenials themselves, I have two sons who are from that generation. I get to interact with them and their friends all the time and must say that they impress me as being just as we were at their age. So they are not quite as patriotic as we were (I would say bull to that one: look at them rooting for Canada at the olympics or World cups). What did we expect: they are the first generation that has been raised with wonderful tools that gives them access not only to everything that is going on in the world around them, but to communicating in a social way with the ordinary people of all nations. It's only normal that they would take a world view first. It does not means they would not volunteer en masse to serve if our country was somehow threatened. I suspect they would.

Generalizations about any demographic tend to be in error for a minority of the particular demographic.

I recall the very broad ' baby boomer generation. ' The youth of today tend to think the whole age group was pot smoking rebels in their day before adapting to the more conservative attitudes.

What I don't recall from the ' baby boomer' generation was the passive-aggressive, whiny entitlement attitudes that seems to be so prevalent in today's later Gen-x ers and Millennials. Thank God there are many youth who resist the trend and are blessed with critical thinking and common sense.

 

[dapaterson]

What I don't recall from the ' baby boomer' generation was the passive-aggressive, whiny entitlement attitudes that seems to be so prevalent in today's later Gen-x ers and Millennials. Thank God there are many youth who resist the trend and are blessed with critical thinking and common sense.

Try to introduce means tests for government support to their generation, or point out that their lack of fiscal discipline has saddled future generations with huge debt, and you'll see the Boomer whiny entitlement come out.

 

[Kirkhill]

Try to introduce means tests for government support to their generation, or point out that their lack of fiscal discipline has saddled future generations with huge debt, and you'll see the Boomer whiny entitlement come out.

Actually DAP, it was "The Greatest Generation" (WW2) and their parents (WW1 and the Depression) that voted in Roosevelt's New Deal and Attlee's Welfare State fit for heroes.  MacKenzie King, Pearson and Douglas were late to the party.

 

[Good2Golf]

Try to introduce means tests for government support to their generation, or point out that their lack of fiscal discipline has saddled future generations with huge debt, and you'll see the Boomer whiny entitlement come out.

:nod:

Of course downplaying that it will be paid in significant part by the general income from the taxes of all, including the Millenials...

 

[Brad Sallows]

The only good thing about the extension of the ORPP into a CPP expansion is that it doesn't have much effect on those with few remaining contribution years remaining.  Undoubtedly, though, in general the younger generations will figure out some way to kick the can as the past ones have - unless there is no remaining way to prevent the music from stopping.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>I am sorry, but good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo is how every new generation has seen the world, and to me that is a positive, not a dangerous slippery slope.

Fair enough, but the dissatisfaction of the 1920s/30s didn't turn out very well; and the dissatisfaction of the 1960s can be traced to some not very successful programs and some substantial commitment overhangs today.  I suppose I am the pessimist here: the damage that has been done and the lives lost far outweighs the good that has been done and the lives that have been improved where politics is involved*.

*The caveat: most of the lives that have been improved I attribute to technology and business (selfishness), not to any political/social reformers.

 

[biernini]

Actually DAP, it was "The Greatest Generation" (WW2) and their parents (WW1 and the Depression) that voted in Roosevelt's New Deal and Attlee's Welfare State fit for heroes.  MacKenzie King, Pearson and Douglas were late to the party.

The "Greatest Generation" whittled that debt to GDP ratio down to 31.70 percent in 1974, and has since ballooned to well over 100 under the care and control of the 'boomers. Household debt in America grew from essentially nothing around 1950 and remained around 50% through to the seventies before exploding to almost 130% of disposable income just before the Great Recession, and still hovers over 100%. Ominously this is presently at over 160% in Canada. State/Province and Municipal debt have all followed similar trends.

It's absolutely ludicrous to blame the present debt load that is expected to be carried by the Millenials and beyond as a legacy of FDR et al.

 

[a_majoor]

I have mentioned in past political threads that we are entering an era where the sorts of ideas championed by current political parties and the social and political structures that have been created are no longer effectively answering the questions of today or reflecting the social, economic or demographic changes we see all around us.

In the past, this has set the stage for some huge upheavals, at the mildest watching entire industries and political parties vanish all the way to revolutions overturning nations. In between, we also see nations in turmoil being overtaken by ruthless dictators, most of whom receive at least the passive acceptance of the population (yes, even the Afghan people welcomed the Taliban at first) with the promise of ending chaos and providing stability.

Many young people see opportunities are lacking, and a bleak future paying off debts incurred by today's reckless political spending. This is compounded by their lack of proper education (speaking anecdotally, I have taught leadership candidates since the 1990's and each crop has greater difficulty in reasoning and communication, even if they are probably as smart in raw IQ as the ones before. They simply never have been taught how to think, analyse or plan, or how to use the English language effectively. This isn't just confined to the military population, dig up some old newspapers and read letters to the editor, or even look at how newspaper and magazine articles have been dumbed down over the decades).

So the younger generation can sense they have been handed a raw deal compared to the past, and don't have the tools available to do something about it (yet). People who move to radical Islam, or start moving with the Alt-Right, or study Anarcho-Capitalism are all seeking the new tools, new social, economic and political institutions that will provide workable answers to the problems and issues they face.

That will be a brutal evolutionary process, and Marnie Le Pen, the AdF, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are models of what Canada and the world's politics will look  like as the future unfolds. Many Alt-Right bloggers believe that identiy politics are replacing ideological politics as more and more institutions are captured by the ideas of "identity" and "diversity" (a very sad development in my mind), and it is an easy route to travel, since humans are inherently tribal in nature. Other models have been proposed, and of course old models like the "New Order" are making a rapid comeback as well  Bernie Sanders could easily have said "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, niente contro lo Stato." and millions of Bernie Bros would have fallen all over themselves.

What "values" younger Canadians will chose will probably end up being the ones which promise to provide them with the best personal outcomes. If Canada survives in a way we would still identify with after that transition is interesting to contemplate.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The "Greatest Generation" whittled that debt to GDP ratio down to 31.70 percent in 1974, and has since ballooned to well over 100 under the care and control of the 'boomers. Household debt in America grew from essentially nothing around 1950 and remained around 50% through to the seventies before exploding to almost 130% of disposable income just before the Great Recession, and still hovers over 100%. Ominously this is presently at over 160% in Canada. State/Province and Municipal debt have all followed similar trends.

It's absolutely ludicrous to blame the present debt load that is expected to be carried by the Millenials and beyond as a legacy of FDR et al.

The data I have ~ for Canada ~ is slightly different, although the pattern is the same:

Canada's national (federal, only) public debt was down to about 20% of GDP in the late 1960s.

It began to climb, rapidly in the 1970s and the rate of growth was not constrained (in other words spending was allowed to continue even when it was, fairly obviously, unaffordable) and by the mid 1990s (only 25 years after the spending spree began, it was at 60% of GDP.

The Chrétien government took action ~ including "offloading" expenses onto AB, BC and ON ~ and by 2008 the debt had been reduced to a more manageable 30+% of GDP. But, remember, please that this was the federal government's debt, only ... we, as taxpayers, are on the hook for federal and provincial (and local) debts and, circa 2000 provincial debts, beyond just Quebec's, began to grow at an alarming rate.

The Great Recession drove borrowing up again and by 2012 it was at 38% of GDP.

My, personal, analysis: pent up demand for social services ~ which was led by the "Greatest Generation" which had endured/survived/suffered through the Great Depression and then fought World War II and was convinced that it wanted neither for its children  and grandchildren ~ was finally met by someone (Pierre Trudeau) who was willing to open the supply valve ... all the way. No prime minister since, not Mulroney, not Chrétien, not Harper and certainly not Justin Trudeau, had the guts to stop the bleeding. We want our social services, we feel "entitled to our entitlements," we believe that the "the land is strong" and that there is an endless supply of someone else's money that can be spent on us ... woe the politician who disagrees.

Now that Canada's two largest provinces, with over half the population, are both economic weak sisters, both with ginormous public debts of their own, we look a lot worse than the national debt numbers (still in the 30s) would indicate, in fact, at a (somewhat educated) guess we are somewhere in the 90% to 110% range of debt:GDP.