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Canadian Federal Election 44 - Sep 2021

medic5

Member
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380
If you go back a few pages you can read our discussion about the gun statement and how he didn't actually change his mind at all. His platform has been costed to return to balance after 10 years, if he survives that long.
Ah, that's my mistake for only reading headlines.

"O'Toole repeated that statement in the following days while remaining evasive about whether he was talking about the May 2020 cabinet order or 1977 bill that banned fully automatic weapons, saying on Saturday that voters could look in the party platform to "fill in the blanks.""

Jesus, that fooled me.
 

Weinie

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,174
Points
1,010
I've been a Conservative member for a few years, and I voted for O'Toole in the leadership race. (Weird that they allow people to vote at 14) Truthfully I feel a bit betrayed, he went against his word on guns and has broken a few other promises he made to his supporters. The Conservative party has also moved further from fiscal conservatism, and I don't see how they will keep all their promises and balance the budget without raising taxes.

I don't think O'Toole is a good leader, I value honesty and actually staying accountable to the promises you make to your supporters, instead of changing your mind on a whim to try to get more votes.

For voters in my situation, what do you do? I would never support the NDP since I prefer to not spend every cent then raise taxes to the moon, I strongly dislike Justin Trudeau, the Greens are irrelevant, and the PPC sounds pretty crazy to me and some of their candidates are literally crazy.

Good thing I can't vote, no way I could make a decision.
You didn't seem to find it weird, you joined and you voted for him. I find it weird that you, out of the blue, feel betrayed, and are expressing that feeling of betrayal with a week to go. Weird, eh.
 

Brad Sallows

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
788
Points
910
Libertarianism is a pretty broad category

Within a narrow range of quibbling, it's maximal individual liberty. Lack of property rights ain't in it, no matter how people wish to redefine the concept.
 

Brad Sallows

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
788
Points
910
I'm not impressed with O'Toole's slide left either, but I'll settle for the best combination of electable and conservative. Lest anyone forget, promises made during campaigns don't get kept very much.

Hard to picture American conservative/Republicans as illiberal when the essence of their brand of conservativism is holding to what is probably the most liberal, pro-individual constitution extant.
 

Brad Sallows

Army.ca Fixture
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788
Points
910
Sure, life has consequences. But people should be free to go to hell in their own way, as much as possible.
 

SupersonicMax

Army.ca Veteran
Mentor
Reaction score
490
Points
880
Sure, life has consequences. But people should be free to go to hell in their own way, as much as possible.
Should they be allowed to kill? Makes choices that put others at risk? If so, at what level? Great idea in theory that doesn’t stand up to reality.
 

Brad Sallows

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
788
Points
910
The usual rule libertarians cite is the "fist ends where nose starts" principle. People who think of themselves as libertarians have spent a lot of time thinking about where to draw the lines; some have even written about it. (They spend more time debating ideology and principles than centrists do, probably because they never hold much power and so have a lot of time on their hands.) Despite what some people think, one of the first things on a libertarian's plate is organized government to protect individual liberty and provide orderly rules for transactions and contracts. Most of the "libertarian market failure" critiques I've read are really criticisms of crony capitalism, which is not supported by libertarians.

Most of the really big fuck-ups we endure are from people trying to use government to corner a bigger slice of something for themselves.
 

medic5

Member
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380
Should they be allowed to kill? Makes choices that put others at risk? If so, at what level? Great idea in theory that doesn’t stand up to reality.
I think a lot of libertarians just don't want the government to make these sorts of decisions, but to delegate it instead to companies to do what they'd like. For example with COVID, libertarians would be ok with Mcdonald's requiring masks, but not the government requiring them.
 

SupersonicMax

Army.ca Veteran
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I think a lot of libertarians just don't want the government to make these sorts of decisions, but to delegate it instead to companies to do what they'd like. For example with COVID, libertarians would be ok with Mcdonald's requiring masks, but not the government requiring them.
Great, so companies are allowed to make decisions on who to kill (that was my first question). Winner.
 

SupersonicMax

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I think the logic is that you, as the consumer, make the decision since your money really determines what a company does.
So now, whoever has the most money can influence a company to decide who to kill. This is getting better by the second!
 

medic5

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You didn't seem to find it weird, you joined and you voted for him. I find it weird that you, out of the blue, feel betrayed, and are expressing that feeling of betrayal with a week to go. Weird, eh.
I really don't understand what you're saying. If you're saying that I'm lying, would you like to see my membership card? Why would I even lie about something as meaningless as this?

Yes, I voted for O'Toole. Yes, I am disappointed that he is sliding to the left. This election was literally called a month ago, he made his comments a week ago, I don't see how I could be disappointed earlier.
 

ModlrMike

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
523
Points
960
Becoming more centrist is both pragmatic and necessary for the Conservatives. Pragmatic, because as long as they're tied to the "Trump lite" label, they're completely unelectable. Necessary, because Canada writ large is essentially a centrist, somewhat left of center society. The Conservatives have to become more progressive (whatever that means), in order to appeal to a larger cohort of voters.
 

Brad Sallows

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
788
Points
910
Great, so companies are allowed to make decisions on who to kill (that was my first question). Winner.

You two are arguing a complete dead-end, from the perspective of a libertarian. No-one, acting individually or collectively through some kind of front, should be able to kill someone.
 

SupersonicMax

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You two are arguing a complete dead-end, from the perspective of a libertarian. No-one, acting individually or collectively through some kind of front, should be able to kill someone.
So, where do liberties end? Killing is the extreme but there is a spectrum of things that has effects on others, between killing someone amd not be allowed to have any effect on someone’s life. Where is the line?
 

medic5

Member
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Becoming more centrist is both pragmatic and necessary for the Conservatives. Pragmatic, because as long as they're tied to the "Trump lite" label, they're completely unelectable. Necessary, because Canada writ large is essentially a centrist, somewhat left of center society. The Conservatives have to become more progressive (whatever that means), in order to appeal to a larger cohort of voters.
I think that moving to the center also alienates people on the right, which is why the PPC is gaining in popularity. The worst-case scenario would be that the Trump label is never forgotten, centrists never vote blue, and the right splinters, ruining any chances for the Conservatives to win.
 

daftandbarmy

Army.ca Relic
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3,694
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1,060
More proof, in case it was needed, that nurses are great organizers:


Trudeau lashes out at protester who made sexist slur about his wife​


Trudeau's responses to anti-vaccination protesters during the pandemic have ranged from dismissive to sympathetic. During repeated attempts to disrupt his campaign events, Trudeau has responded in his speeches by making a joke or telling them to get vaccinated.

At a campaign stop in Quebec earlier on Monday, Trudeau thanked a People's Party of Canada supporter for helping him make his point. As he was asked by a reporter if he was concerned that PPC Leader Maxime Bernier's rhetoric was inciting violence, the demonstrator started cheering.

"Thank you, sir, for making my point," Trudeau said.

The demonstrations were organized by two Ontario nurses who have promoted conspiracy theories about COVID-19. The organizers also attended rallies in the U.S. for those who think the pandemic is a "fraud."

 
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