Canada considers purchase of used US Army Chinooks

[404SqnAVSTeach]

Canada is considering buying used CH-47D Chinook helicopters from the US Army but details are still to be worked out on upgrades needed to the aircraft and a clear requirement is not yet established.

Colonel Dave Burt, Director of Air Requirements, told JDW that "we are considering a range of options" for Canada's Tactical Aviation Lift Capability project. Among the options are new Chinooks, as well as used D models. A used US Army Chinook would need to be upgraded, but "we have not really got into the details of that", said Col Burt. "What we're trying to do right now is iron out what are our requirements and we will look at all options in the context of the best long-term solution."

As well as the Chinooks, Col Burt says the options being studied include derivatives of the AgustaWestland EH 101 and Sikorsky S-92. Canada already has 15 Cormorants (EH101s) which it uses for search and rescue and has ordered 28 S-92s to replace the CH-124 Sea King maritime helicopter.

Col Burt says the air force is also looking at Sikorsky's H-53, "which may come back into production".

The government announced its intention to acquire new medium- to heavy-lift helicopters in its February budget. The Canadian military does not currently have any medium-lift helicopters, having sold its seven CH-147 Chinooks to the Royal Netherlands Air Force in 1993.

The air force wants the new helicopters "as soon as feasible", said Col Burt. They are a key component of the new joint task forces being set up for dispatch to international hot spots.

I would prefer to see brand new Chinook.  BTW - Rumour as it here (in Greenwood) that if the Cormorant didn't have the Tail Rotor problem... The CAF would have repainted a couple of them and would be deployed in Afghanistan to support our troops.  Anybody else heard this???

 

[Tracker 23A]

All I can say is YUP.

 

[404SqnAVSTeach]

Yes... you agree with new Chinooks only, or
Yes... you heard the rumour with having some Cormorants in Afghanistan???

 

[Good2Golf]

Using open sources, the only official DND assessment, as noted in the press around the June/July timeframe, was looking at Sea Kings being deployed in Afghanistan. 

I wouldn't "think" the Cormorant would have been looked at seriously, even "if" the tail rotor hadn't had the issues it does.  I would hypothesize that there are far more issues than just repainting a yellow/red helo green...

It is an extremely demanding environment for helos over here.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Allen]

I would prefer to see brand new Chinook.

I think this would probably be everyone's preference. After the Chicoutimi thing, many Canadians probably look upon used military equipment as junk. This is perhaps unfair since a good rebuild program can make a piece of equipment almost as good as new. From what I understand, many of the F & G models being delivered in the U.S. are rebuilds of D's, which may in turn be rebuilds of earlier models.

We may be able to get more bang for our buck by buying rebuilt F/G's, plus I would guess they could be delivered sooner than new-builds. Assuming the overhaul is rigorous, "used" should not be a dirty word, but unfortunately many Canadians will view it as such.

Also, they mention EH-101's are being considered !!! Do you think AugustaWestland wants anything to do with Canada after the last fiasco? Or maybe the gov't thinks an EH-101 order may pacify them & get them to drop their lawsuit.

 

[23007]

I would prefer to see brand new Chinook.   BTW - Rumour as it here (in Greenwood) that if the Cormorant didn't have the Tail Rotor problem... The CAF would have repainted a couple of them and would be deployed in Afghanistan to support our troops.   Anybody else heard this???

Yes I heard that rumour...and its not really a rumour, they were actually considering it as an option.

 

[Good2Golf]

Yes I heard that rumour...and its not really a rumour, they were actually considering it [Cormorant] as an option.

For all of a few seconds perhaps...SAR mafia (rightly so) said that with Labs gone, the was very little option to make a TSSU of 149 in AFG work and still provide National SAR.  There are only two things more sacrosanct in the Canadian air force than fighters, fighters, fighters....Snowbirds and SAR.

That siad, I think things will work out.  Rumint indicated it might not be a purchase but rather a loan than puts CH-47D (in limited number) on a ramp in Canada significantly sooner than coming off the line at Boeing Vertol in Philly.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Popurhedoff]

I would prefer to see brand new Chinook.   BTW - Rumour as it here (in Greenwood) that if the Cormorant didn't have the Tail Rotor problem... The CAF would have repainted a couple of them and would be deployed in Afghanistan to support our troops.   Anybody else heard this???

The Cormorant is maintained by civilians...  think about it...  there are no military people associated with maintaining that fleet.  :rage:

 

[Kirkhill]

Popurhedoff:

Just to be clear - do you think that the current problems with the EH-101/Cormorant are associated with the maintenance contract?  I seem to recall reacding somewhere along the way that we not only civilanized the maintenance but that we scrimped on purchasing a stock of spare parts.  Or is that just a rumour?

 

[Popurhedoff]

Popurhedoff:

Just to be clear - do you think that the current problems with the EH-101/Cormorant are associated with the maintenance contract?  

No,  I beleive the problem stems from a design flaw.

 

[Kirkhill]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Popurhedoff]

IIRC,  the lack of spare parts... that comes down to being cheap... whether us , them, and/or both.

 

[Hunter911]

OK... I'm no helicopter expert, and I'm just poking around for some information. I was just wondering if the chinooks are still being produced new? Second of all, i was wondering if the chinook has an armourments? I have seen a picture of a 50 caliber mounted in the back, but that was all. Thank you.

 

[Good2Golf]

OK... I'm no helicopter expert, and I'm just poking around for some information. I was just wondering if the chinooks are still being produced new? Second of all, i was wondering if the chinook has an armourments? I have seen a picture of a 50 caliber mounted in the back, but that was all. Thank you.

Yes, three models: SD, F and G.  SD is a hybrid of D and E, long-range fuel tanks for the most part, F is primarily the cargo variant replacing the D (was initially called ICH, improved cargo helicopter), and there is the G special ops variant developed from MH47Ds/Es.  The G is being built both from remanufactured Ds and Es as well as having some airframes built from scratch.

Re: Armaments - I know of four systems used on various US Chinooks: M2 .50, M60 7.62, M134 7.62 mini-gun, and most recently, the M240 (like our C6...based on the MAG 58).

Cheers,
Duey

 

[KevinB]

I'm pulling for the G's  and M134's 

 

[Infanteer]

If Santa is going to deliver, me too!

 

[Hunter911]

Cool. Thanks for the information.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm pulling for the G's   and M134's    

You and me both!  ;D

Unfortunately we won't have them in time for TF 1-06...maybe some loaner D-models for TF 1-07 and final beasts for TF 2/3-08?  Here's hoping!

Cheers,
Duey

 

[beenthere]

A fleet of Chinooks is without question a requirement but they will come with a very large price tag in terms of personnel and infrastructure to support them. With the weak base of personnel to draw from there's going to be lots of growing pains that will last for some time.
I would suggest that it would take a few years before they would be capable of providing the kind of support that they are expected to provide.

 

[mover1]

My trade is hyped and pumped, everyone hopes the Chinooks come back, not only for Operations but for the domestic side as well. Giving us the flexibility to go north again, Slinging loads, moving troops. 
The Career managers and the higher up in the trade are already whispering in the halls about loadmaster training starting up again.

The books are all there on the shelves still and we do have some experienced people still in the forces who can and should pass their wisdom off to us.

Getting a few loaners to start doing the training on would be useful to the CF, used aircraft could fill that role just finely, After some new models roll of the assembly line the older ones can go to training establishments as maintenance or static trainers. AETE can get one and play with it all they want. We fill a gap and everyone is happy.

Don't let "used" scare you off just because uncle Jean hummed and hawed at buying some subs and let them rot at the docks until we finally took them shouldn't leave an after taste. Yeas it can make you weary but look at some of the good examples we have.Some of our Herc's are "USED" (bad example) and have been flying for years. The dutch have been using our "USDED" Chinooks for years. Our Leopard turrets are "USED"