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CADPAT & MARPAT (and "did the americans copy off our new desert camo?")

While I fully acknowledge that some of Mr Cramer's "ion"-related business claims are questionable, I see little to fault in his camouflage-related endeavors.  With one or two minor exceptions, the background information provided on his web-site is consistent with my own camouflage research.  His pattern designs may not appeal to everyone, and some may see the broad range of minor pattern variations as a theme taken to ridiculous extremes.  At the end of the day however, no one can dispute that one of Mr. Cramer's digital urban patterns has just been adopted by the Jordanian Special Police.  Do a search on militaryphotos.net for confirmation of the sales claim on his web-site.

The personal issues that some on this board have with Mr. Cramer nothwithstanding, the fact remains that his camouflage research is solid and his developmental efforts have resulted in the formal adoption of at least one of his digital patterns.  I have never met Mr Cramer and am personally ambivalent.  In the interests of fairness however, I would suggest that his recent sales success offers him a degree of legitmacy and vindication that ought to at least be acknowledged......

Cheers,

Mark C
 
Bartok5 said:
Barracuda of Switzerland.
... Of Sweden... Which you state correctly a few lines further down ;)

Bartok5 said:
I've worked with many different Armies over the past 22 years (U.S., British, German, French, Belgian, Polish, Dutch, Ukrainian, Malaysian, Lithuanian, Romanian, Uzbek, etc, etc) all of whom wear one type of camouflage pattern or another. I can honestly state that I've never encountered another pattern that comes close to the CADPAT in terms of versatility and effectiveness in the field.

CADPAT and the danish M/84-pattern are indestinguishable once you're 200-300 meters away. I'll even go as far as claiming that the "lime" and "olive" colours of CADPAT are identical to the bright green and dark green colours of M/84. This is however not a scientifical fact, but an observation by yours truly. The IR capabilities of M/84 are -according to me- superior to CADPAT as they can't be washed off (or out)!

Bartok5 said:
In the last round of NATO field uniform trials, CADPAT clearly out-performed the U.S. Woodland, German Flecktarn, British DPM, Danish M/84, etc, etc, etc. This is not conjecture � it is the validated result of recent multi-national trials.

I asked one of the owners of DADCON about these trials, and if any of these where ever published for the average man to read. He knew absolutely nothing about any such trials ever being held, and asked me (-!) why NATO would bother with such "tests". A valid question I believe. I'm not claiming that these trials haven't been held, but ... Where, when, how and most importantly: Why?

Respectfully
Troels
 
Italians in Afghanistan also wear a digital camo pattern remarkably similar to ours. It is a bit more grey, not so much tan/yellow.
 
Regarding my posting above:

I've had the pleasure of discussing this subject with Bartok5 earlier, on the forum Wheeler.ca used to have.
But as time has gone by, my mind has been elsewhere. And since I can't brush up my memory on that forum,
i hope it's okay to bring these questions up here.

/Troels
 
On the marines site they said "there are interesting images like helicopters, rifles, and the official Marine Corps symbol woven into the fabric that can only be seen if you know where to look."
Is there any thing like that on our cadpat?
 
The Globe and Anchor symbol is spread randomly throughout the material.  It's not hard to find.  And persoanlly, I think MARPAT has a broader range of use than CADPAT does.  Interestingly enough, I read an article (can't remember where) about the new US Army ARMPAT uniforms.  It looks like very faded MARPAT, almost to the point of being grey.  Anyway, the article discussed how US Forces will no longer be issued black boots because in a study of natural camo, black was found to be a color that is not produced in nature.  The plan was that the current issue boots would be phased out in favor of a desert style boot.  CADPAT and MARPAT both have black in them. 
 
I don't know anything about anything when it comes to camoflage, but don't tigers have black stripes to help break up their shape? That's an example of "natural camoflage".
 
sironisix said:
On the marines site they said "there are interesting images like helicopters, rifles, and the official Marine Corps symbol woven into the fabric that can only be seen if you know where to look."
Is there any thing like that on our cadpat?

Mate,

I think someone is pulling your chain when it comes to helo and wpn images. I have seen the MARPAT, yes on Marines, and it was them who pointed out the digital USMC symbol on them, not embroidered in, but part of the scheme in ink, itself.

Don't believe anything you hear.

I think the Mods should open a new forum called 'the rumour net' (only kidding).
 
I for one believe that the black colour has a use in camouflage patterns (depending on the climate and foliage, of course)
1. To give an effect of shadows
2. As Oyaguy says; to break up the outline.
3. And finally to function as a contrast to the other colours.
 
I couldn't make out what was in the right hand of this JTF-2 assulter... Is it a camo'd weapon of some sort?

 
foxtwo said:
I couldn't make out what was in the right hand of this JTF-2 assulter... Is it a camo'd weapon of some sort?

... Some sort of Diemaco C8FT, painted in the wrong colours if going by terrain and season ;D
 
Sorry, I got to thinking about it last night and there were two parts to that statement.  I think what they meant is that black is not a naturally occurring color in foliage, but the other part of it was that the human eye in studys was drawn to the color of black.  I'm going on a hunt to find the article.
 
I'm kind of curious about black in camouflage. I know a lot of natural predators use black, but people aren't deer, or colour blind. So maybe not using black would be a good idea if the human eye is attracted to black like Blackhorse 7 mentions.
I don't know where I heard/read this{I didn't think this up on myself}, but wouldn't black be useful to give camouflage depth, and imitate shadows?
 
oyaguy said:
I don't know where I heard/read this{I didn't think this up on myself}, but wouldn't black be useful to give camouflage depth, and imitate shadows?
Moving in the right direction with this statement...
Regarding the human eye being attracted to black: I don't think so. The human eye easily detects the movement of LIGHT colors. The human eye also has difficulty focusing in depth, so black is used to simulate shadows and confuse the eye's depth perception.
I think it is a mistake for the US Army to go with such a light pattern in the ACU. Woodlands and deserts are so different that it is very difficult to find a pattern that is effective in both.
 
I agree with what you say about the new US Army uniform... it looks like it's only practical theatre would be the middle east.  But that's what the article said.  In their study, the human eye was natually attracted to the color black.  I can't find the article anymore... it was an official US Army site that went into great depths about the new movement towards digital pattern uniforms.  It even had pictures of trial digital uniforms for the US Air Force and Navy.
 
The new US Army  ACU(not ARMPAT) has green in it now so it'll blend in more with wooded areas, instead of the uniform being all grey an screaming SHOOT ME.

The USAF an NAVY uniforms are blue an grey, doesn't really matter for most of them who don't go in the field, but for the guys who do(SEALs, CCT, PJs, etc) they'd probably wear another uniform.
 
Patroels said:
... Some sort of Diemaco C8FT, painted in the wrong colours if going by terrain and season ;D

Kinda blends in with the trees don't ya think??... ^-^
 
TIDE ?  bad bad bad.

Never use Modren commerical laundry soaps on new IRR treated uniforms and gear.  The "whiteners" they use will make you stand out like a flashlight under night vision gear.

I guess it's fine for stateside / base / exercises, but set aside a few sets of NEW combats for the time your going to the two-way rifle ranges.  use the mildest soap you can if any at all, hell who cares if you smell when folks are shooting back at ya....

I'll look around for some IRR safe suds, dam if the brand name comes to mind right now.  Look around you can find it mailorder / Internet, best place is out of the UK, i.e. Penirth Survial  or others.  The Brits have been using IRR safe soap for years, even before CADPAT, back when IRR treatment first started getting put into the CAMO dyes for uniforms.

And, yes we Americans did steal the pattern  hahaha  :dontpanic: Hell I sent some CADPAT items to the Sinper / Scout School at Camp Lejeune for review when if first came out and before it started to get issued to the CF.  hehehe Don't ask me where it came from....  ::)



 
Thanks, nice to be back.  Where have I been, humm I'll have to check my passport  ;)
 
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