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C7A2

Which weapon do you prefer?

  • C7A1

    Votes: 2 5.6%
  • C7A2

    Votes: 15 41.7%
  • C8

    Votes: 19 52.8%

  • Total voters
    36
  • Poll closed .

TCBF

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Dissident said:
Last week, I shot the C7a2 for the first time in rapid fire.

Had 2 stoppages: one on repetition and one on auto.

After we were done and I policed up my brass, I had 2 rounds in the mix with bullets that had been pushed back into the casing.

Not impressed.

- The old 'SARP Newsletter' from the eighties, IIRC, stated a MRBF of 1000, so if you got 2 stoppages doing a PWT, bad luck.  Impacted cartridges however, can be bad crimps, or dropping the full mag or cardboard ammo box on it's nose.  Military ammunition generally has good crimps on the projectile (and the primer) to prevent such things from happening through 'normal' abuse.

Remember to clean the 'ledge' in your bolt carrier and space the gaps in the bolt rings.
 

Gunnerlove

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Weapon myth alert : spaced gas rings. Swat magazine had an article on AR-15 myths, and they said off setting the gaps was a myth as the rifle only needs one ring to operate. I stripped all but one off of my bolt and it kept working and working. I have since swapped new ones on so it does not flop cock around in the groove, but I maintain this one is busted.
 

TCBF

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Interesting, thanks.

I bought an AR-15 SP 1 in 1973, acquired a TM for it, and loyally spaced my gas rings all of these years.  I sold it when they became too mainstream. 

A quote from another website: "If it doesn't have at least 300 linear feet of Picatinny rail, it ain't tactical."
 

TheHead

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I've never done Drill with a C7A2, an intelligent RSM/CSM (Whoever is in charge of the drill team) will just re-issue C7A1 rifles back to you.  Also I've seen no difference in the stoppages of the weapon. It fires fine.  Yes the cocking handle is junk, just try and get an old C7A1 cocking handle. 

Also with "pimping your gat"  always depends on your CSM in country and out.  Ours was a typical dinosaur and we were told we could bring our own weapons when we were IN theater (While A Coy was walking around with far superior kit). Kind of late isn't it  ::)
 

DirtyDog

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TheHead said:
I've never done Drill with a C7A2, an intelligent RSM/CSM (Whoever is in charge of the drill team) will just re-issue C7A1 rifles back to you.   Also I've seen no difference in the stoppages of the weapon. It fires fine.  Yes the cocking handle is junk, just try and get an old C7A1 cocking handle. 

Also with "pimping your gat"  always depends on your CSM in country and out.   Ours was a typical dinosaur and we were told we could bring our own weapons when we were IN theater (While A Coy was walking around with far superior kit). Kind of late isn't it  ::)

When you say "own weapons" do you mean actual weapons or just accessories?
 

KevinB

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He means parts and accessories.


FWIW a little tech note I stole from elsewhere -- not just C7 specific.

2.  Firearm performance in adverse conditions:  Firearms do not perform reliably when sand, dust, snow, or water are blown into the mechanism by wind, moving vehicles (helicopters!) or by muzzle blast. Local conditions and exposure to contaminants must dictate the extent of cleaning and the number of times that cleaning will need to be carried out during the day.  It just takes more work to keep a firearm operating under extremely bad conditions.

3.  Cleaning and lubrication in adverse conditions: U.S. Forces have followed a long tradition of leaving firearms dry of lubricant during desert operations under the belief that less sand adheres to a dry surface more than to a lubricated one.  This tradition has been proven incorrect.  The need for good lubrication even in the desert has been well established during desert training and peace keeping operation, during the Gulf conflict, and by trials in a variety of climatic conditions. 

The U.S. Army Infantry School recently concluded a series of tests that concluded that the best single product for maintaining most firearms is Cleaner, Lubricant, and Preservative (CLP).  CLP has been developed to cover a wide range of climatic conditions and has been developed to act as a cleaner, a lubricant and a preservative. Using other oils may cause reduced reliability.

The following should be cleaned and left dry for firing:  Bore and chamber

  Face of the bolt

  Ammunition.

(Preserve rifle, including these surfaces, with CLP for storage.  Wipe dry before firing.  NEVER lubricate or clean ammunition with CLP or any other oily material.)

The following should be cleaned and left dry (desert) or lightly lubricated (other):

    Exterior surfaces and sights

The contact and bearing surfaces of these parts should be generously lubricated:         

    Trigger mechanism

    Pivot and takedown pins   

    Cam pin guide rail within the body

    Guide rods and springs

    All rubbing or contact surfaces of the following parts:  carrier, cam pin, receiver, charging handle, operating springs, AR-10 or M15/M16 buffer, and AR-180 guide rods.

    Breech bolt body and locking lugs

    Moving/sliding surfaces of the bipod, if installed.

Most operators tend to put too little lubricant on the firearm.  Most inspectors tend to criticize firearms that are properly lubricated.  A properly lubricated firearm will have lubrication flowing away from the intended surfaces.  Any surface that holds all the lubricant applied to it is probably not lubricated well enough.

Emergency lubrication:  In an area where immediate lubrication is important and absolutely no better material is available, a bit of oil drawn from an engine is better than operating the firearm dry.  A vehicle dip stick can serve as an awkward applicator.

4.  Clean often:  Under extreme conditions of sand and dust, every opportunity should be taken to clean and re-lubricate the firearm during lulls in firing. In particular the gas affected parts, should be cleaned after firing around 330 rounds and lubricated.

If possible, the solvent portion of the CLP should be allowed to evaporate before using the firearm, leaving behind a well lubricated surface.  Ignore the “white glove” standard of cleanliness; proper application of CLP will leave a sort of grainy/oily looking surface that includes particles of PTFE (Teflon®) on the surface.  CLP must be well shaken to thoroughly mix it before use, otherwise little lubrication will be left behind when the solvent evaporates. 

In conditions of extreme cold, a lighter lubricant such as “PLS” should be used.  PLS is a light oil similar to “3 in 1” oil. 


 

DirtyDog

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So I-6, do you beleive in that advice?  obviously lube is a good thing but is it wise with all the sand?

Also, what cleaner/gun oil would you reccomend?  I've heard of some miracle lube/cleaners out there......
 

KevinB

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My M4A1 here is wet, quite wet...

  I use CLP predominantly -- since the US mil uses it.  I have some MPro7 cleaner that I will use occasionally to scrub the barrel on my Stainless Steel match barrel.  For a Chrome lined barrel -- just brass brush and a CLP and a patch thru later.

The only time I remove carbon is when its baked on -- carbon will not bake on until the CLP hase been burnt off from the heat of firing multiple round. 

I dont clear my weapon very often  ;) - so there is not a lot of palces for dirt to enter my weapons -- I put a foamy earplug in the muzzle and am good to go.
  The PITA is dependant on the chopper crews as some have you clear on Adm flights -- so then you get some ick from the dust.

Keep in mind I roll in an armoured suburban - and only crack my door to get out and give someone some love -- so I'm not the best example for dust and dirt accumulations.

That said in Afghan with the CF -- I never had problems with dirt build up (the outside looked grim -- but never the inner)

   
 

KevinB

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FWIW -- In Kabul  - MJP and I where on a range where we tried just about every method under the sun.
Dry, Graphite, Littel bit of CLP, Lot of CLP, Militec etc.

Dry is fine for a few rounds -- go over 150 and your having troubles
Graphite -- -- well lets not try that one again..

I tried dry telfon as well later on.


The best method I believe is CLP - and a heavy coat.

MJP can relate his experiences later from TF1-06 too
 

Dissident

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Yeah, I am a firm believer in the gospel of [Infidel-6].

However, it is unfortunate that this will be an uphill fight against common wisdom. I don't see this being an easy sell the the CoC.
 

MJP

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Infidel-6 said:
FWIW -- In Kabul  - MJP and I where on a range where we tried just about every method under the sun.
Dry, Graphite, Littel bit of CLP, Lot of CLP, Militec etc.

Dry is fine for a few rounds -- go over 150 and your having troubles
Graphite -- -- well lets not try that one again..

I tried dry telfon as well later on.


The best method I believe is CLP - and a heavy coat.

MJP can relate his experiences later from TF1-06 too

Ahh yes I remember that range....good fun especially the iltis shoot.  I'll second Kev's assesment and say go with a wet weapon.  It makes for more work at times overseas for you to keep sand from gumming everything up but it's worth knowing your weapon will fire.  No matter what precautions you take sand/dust will find it's way into your weapon.  Especially if your vehicle based.  Driving around will force the sand into your weapon so at the end of the day or during make sure ya give a quick 2minute wipe down of any grit.  It just became part of our daily procedure when we stopped to quickly wipe and reoil down the Pintle and Co-Ax MG and then our own weapons.  Took 2 minutes and it was good to know that a) the weapons were good to go for anything that could happen at night and b)good to go for the next day.



However, it is unfortunate that this will be an uphill fight against common wisdom. I don't see this being an easy sell the the CoC.

I don't understand what you are getting at?  It has nothing to do with your CoC and everything to do with doing your job as a soldier and/or leader to make sure your weapon(s) work.  Like you said it is common wisdom and for the most part soldiers will do this on their own.
 

Dissident

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We are getting way off topic here, but you have to take a look at what trade I am in. My CoC is not one to let people deviate much from the straight and narrow on minor technicalities.

Sure, I will be doing this and I will pass it on back at home. But if I get caught teaching this, or if corporal Bloggings gets caught doing it and points back to me:"But sir, I read it on the internet" just won't cut it.

It doesn't matter if it is true or not. Pushing stuff from the bottom up is notoriously hard, especially if it flies in the face of what superiors have "known" all their life. Making a WO, without a combat tour, come too terms with the doctrine he has learned/taught being wrong, is not an easy thing to do.

Like I said: I try, but it is an uphill battle, from the sgts to the major.
 

KevinB

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Diss -- which is why the CF really needs to come up with BN or Bde drive S7 (Force Modernization) cells.

A few checked out NCO's under a young but intelligent Capt. 
Info gets pushed up and out to the others.


 
 

JimmyPeeOn

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I went through about 1100rds on my A2  the range @ CJ in 05.  It was all rapid/auto practical stuff, prone, kneeling, walking doubletaps ect.  Stoppages were NIL  I kept it almost dry for the 1st 300 and I gave it a couple squirts of CLP throughout the afternoon. Worked pretty well, but dirty as hell after.
ab
 
M

MG34

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In A'stan my platoon ran all of our weapons with the same moly grease that the 25mm cannon uses. The GPMGs ran like a charm, as did the C7 and C8s. No stoppages that were not directly magazine related were seen on any C7/C8,the C6s were easy to clean and ran like tops. I recommend this stuff to anyone  going overseas. best part every LAV has a few tubs of this stuff so it's an easy re-supply.
 

Brockvegas

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Hey guys, just out of curiosity, has anyone tried using Hoppes No.9 after cleaning as a lube? Having yet to do my training, I have no experience with gas operated firearms, but I've never found a better oil for any of my hunting rifles.
 

1feral1

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The only authorised lubricant for small arms is CLP. In theatre, there can be some relaxing to this.

Bringing your civvy stuff to trg will only drawn the heat. Just use what they give you.


Wes
 

Brockvegas

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Wes, I didn't mean to imply that I was bringing any to training, I've got a bit more common sense than that. I was only wondering if anyone had used it with positive results.
 

KevinB

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Its more of a cleaner than a lube.

I've used it to clean my personal AR's -- but not to lube --- I've pretty much settled on the MPro7 series of stuff now -- cleaner - copper remover - and a lube.  Best bet unlike a lot of others is not hazmat so you can mail it (and consequently order it while in theatre) -- the lube has a better consistency than CLP (IMHO) -- but really if CLP is provided I would not fell hard done by.

 
 
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Hey all!!

Does anyone of you have experience with the C7A2?

I´m in the danish army and we are going to get some in the near future :)

please pm me if you have some pictures and movies about the weapon or some tips

brian

ps check out my webshop www.soldiers-wear.dk

please email photos and movies to kontakt@soldiers-wear.dk
 
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