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C3 Howitzer Replacement

The only reason I keep mugging up the Bison over the LAV3/6 is the transportability of it. The fact that it actually could be transported in a C130 without preparation.

The counter argument I keep hearing is that it was too light, too poorly armoured for a peer war.

And yet, here, in a war, against the peer we were preparing to fight, armed with the weapons that concerned us, we have an army taking on that enemy with vehicles that are more lightly armed and armoured, with poorer mobility, than the vehicles we were concerned were too light. Vehicles that we up armoured to the point where we reduced their ability to deploy easily and accompany our troops into the field.
To quote Donald Rumsfeld, you go to war with the Army you have...
I suspect that Ukraine would love to have LAV 6.0's to do that instead of Hummers, but...

Go back to the Light vs Mech argument.

What happens to a Light Battalion if it has a platoon of Bisons (14 or 15 with Drivers and Gunners) that can be delivered rapidly by Herc? Vice LAVs that have to be delivered by C17 at a slower pace?
That's no longer a Light Infantry Battalion - but a Motorized Medium BN ;)
 
Don't confuse air portability with "reduced their ability to deploy easily and accompany our troops".

Not everything, in fact very little, is a rapid air deployment operation. A LAV 6.0 does a road move and has a cross country mobility every bit as well as a LAVIII or Bison or Stryker.

In my years when we had Grizzly's I never saw a Chinook sling load one. Not saying someone didn't play around with the idea but it just wasn't what we did then.

Every armoured vehicle is a trade off. Personnel protection that you need all the time is well worth trading off for air transportability that you hardly ever use.

🍻
All true. All accepted.

But.

Why do we throw babies out with the bath water?

Just because we went heavier in one area... why did we not look at what the existing equipment and capabilities offered up that we were rejecting?

The Bison was bought, in part (disregarding pork barrelling for the moment) because it was a simple box that could be managed by the militia to transport troops. It was as well armoured as the M113 and the Saxon, it could handle highways better than the M113 and at least as well as the Saxon, and it was blast resistant. It also offered better cross country mobility than the Deuce and a Half.

It had its place in the line up. The Regs seem to have agreed with that. They decided their need was greater than the Militia's need. And promptly converted to all sorts of neat things - except Troop Carrying Vehicles.

My sense of the Army is that it doesn't do Flexibility really well. There is the solution of the day and there is no other.

The other thing it doesn't do really well is manage readiness. I am not one of those who favours issuing every piece of kit we own so that everybody gets one to play with. I'd sooner we buy three sets of kit for three different environments (9 sets total) and issue one third of each so we have one third of the army up to speed with particular environments but the army has the gear on hand if it needs to bring the other two thirds on line.

And I know that costs money..... and political will.
 
All true. All accepted.

But.

Why do we throw babies out with the bath water?

Just because we went heavier in one area... why did we not look at what the existing equipment and capabilities offered up that we were rejecting?

The Bison was bought, in part (disregarding pork barrelling for the moment) because it was a simple box that could be managed by the militia to transport troops. It was as well armoured as the M113 and the Saxon, it could handle highways better than the M113 and at least as well as the Saxon, and it was blast resistant. It also offered better cross country mobility than the Deuce and a Half.

It had its place in the line up. The Regs seem to have agreed with that. They decided their need was greater than the Militia's need. And promptly converted to all sorts of neat things - except Troop Carrying Vehicles.
I think in order to answer your question of "why" one has to look at the sequence of things.

One of the noted problems with the M113 was its lack of a protected turret for the crew commander/MG operator. The US solved that in Vietnam with the ACAV version of the M113

2d6fcc480225356f3c392da84505f09b.jpg

It was a perfectly useable and useful adaption which Canada but many other countries followed. Instead we bought training tanks and APCs for the Canada based Combat Groups by way of the Grizzly and Cougar which in part got us away from tracks and in part was to equip the RegF units not having M113s and the ResF. That started us onto the road of the tracked/wheeled debate in Canada but also was the first step in giving the infantry an APC with a protective turret.

Essentially though, the AVGP family were already part of the ResF system because their ease of use and maintenance so that before the Bison came mech gear was already in the hands of some reserve units.

The Bison was supposed to originally be a 200 vehicle purchase of the new M113A3s again destined for the ResF. The RegF already was running fleets of M113A1 and A2s. The project was supposed to support the government's promise to enhance the reserves.

m113a3.jpg

As you pointed out there was heavy lobbying in favour of the newly designed Bison (which was essentially a derivative of the USMC LAV 25 project). The lobbying won, the Bison was procured and promptly snaffled up by the RegF because it was a nice roomy vehicle which made excellent CPs, ambulances etc of which there were no AVGP versions. Essentially they were not used much as infantry carriers by the RegF because they already had all the Grizzlies that they needed for that.

It's interesting actually that the Bison came without a turret. I really don't know why but I presume that the specs for the project (which was targeting the M113A3) was an unturreted vehicle like our existing M113s. They could easily have slapped a Cadillac Gage turret on the Bison because that adds very little complication and the ResF was already using it on the Grizzley anyway.

And then came LAV.

My sense of the Army is that it doesn't do Flexibility really well. There is the solution of the day and there is no other.
We do not have a good reputation in the procurement process and we do not seem to do practical modifications very well. I'm still surprised that we managed to fabricate roof racks for the 3/4 ton family. A few dozen Israelis or Ukrainians working in our procurement and fabrication departments would be a god-send.

The other thing it doesn't do really well is manage readiness. I am not one of those who favours issuing every piece of kit we own so that everybody gets one to play with. I'd sooner we buy three sets of kit for three different environments (9 sets total) and issue one third of each so we have one third of the army up to speed with particular environments but the army has the gear on hand if it needs to bring the other two thirds on line.

And I know that costs money..... and political will.
I think I disagree with that in part. I do favour issuing all of our kit (with the exception of technical reference vehicles and a small spares inventory to replace written-off gear.) But I do agree that we need to have "environmentally suitable" equipment spread throughout the system to suit specific missions.

The weapon locker concept does not work too well once you get up to A vehicles. The ever changing vehicle set issued to artillery units in training for Afghanistan was horrific and caused no end of trouble in training crews and drivers and developing TTPs. It settled down in theatre with the TLAV and M577s but those were not standard with what was available to train on in Canada. People need time to train both individually and collectively with their A Vehs. (This is why I so strongly believe we need to get the ResF to the point where they are capable of holding their own gear)

On the other hand I can easily see a light brigade, a medium brigade and a heavy brigade each with their own specialized kit tailored to meet tasks from Northern Canada to Northern Europe to Africa.

🍻
 
I can guarantee that if we replace the 70 or so remaining 105's with 155's it will be 1 gun for two and your yearly ammo allotment will be cut in half, why? Because Canada.....
Colin ever the optimist! 1 for 2! You are shooting for the stars. I am assuming retired without replacement.
 
The closest you really get to a Bison these days is the Stryker - and they get all covered in extra crap during war anyway.

Light Armored Vehicles are anything but lightweight...
iaq.jpg
 
The closest you really get to a Bison these days is the Stryker - and they get all covered in extra crap during war anyway.

Light Armored Vehicles are anything but lightweight...
View attachment 73448
Waddling around like geese at Christmas....

I would swap the TAPVs for LAV II A2s (the upgraded LAV-25/Coyote/Bison) in the rapid deployment and reserve units - no turrets. Maybe a few RWS systems. The empty weight of the 8x8 is 11,072 kg according to Janes (height is 1.85m to top of hull). Although the original Swiss 8x8 only weighed 8800 kg empty.

For the job those Strykers were doing the MRAP seems to be a better option.

And for the assault?
 
For some reason or other, which makes no sense to me anymore, I was always opposed to a remote weapon station. I felt only a manned turret would do.

I still see problems with them - it's hard to do IAs on remote weapon without exposing tender parts - but I do wonder why someone would give up all that hull space inside a LAV 6 infantry carrier for all those turret mechanics. I prefer the Stryker layout and you can still have a heavier weapon system such as the Dragoon without reducing your number of dismounts. It just makes more sense especially now where it's becoming obvious how much dismounts matter in a mech unit.

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For some reason or other, which makes no sense to me anymore, I was always opposed to a remote weapon station. I felt only a manned turret would do.

I still see problems with them - it's hard to do IAs on remote weapon without exposing tender parts - but I do wonder why someone would give up all that hull space inside a LAV 6 infantry carrier for all those turret mechanics. I prefer the Stryker layout and you can still have a heavier weapon system such as the Dragoon without reducing your number of dismounts. It just makes more sense especially now where it's becoming obvious how much dismounts matter in a mech unit.

🍻

There are still a lot of other disadvantages to a RWS. SA is significantly degraded from a two person turret, or even a 1 person turret.

I think RWS have a place - they do a great job on convoy escort vehicles, but I’ll pass at this point to supporting on the objective.
 
Here's a peculiarity - the original Piranha 8x8, on which the Bison, Coyote, LAV-25 and ASLAV was based was comparable to the JLTV. And considerably smaller, more transportable, more capacious, and shorter than the TAPV. With better cross country capability than both the JLTV and the TAPV, and amphibious.

LengthWidthHeightKerb WtCbt Wt
mmmkgkg
JLTV6.2002.52.68,60010,270
Piranha 8x86.3652.51.858,80012,300
Bison 8x86.4522.52.2111,07212,936
LAV-256.3932.52.69211,09912,882
TAPV6.8102.72.2914,74217,237
Stryker6.9502.72.6416,470
LAV III6.9802.72.816,950
LAV 6.07.6202.83.228,636
CC-130J-3016.80032.7421,515
 
Further to this...

Suppose we were to look at static, or defensive forces, vs manoeuverist, or offensive forces?

While accepting that offensive action in the defence is necessary, and that every good defence, even a static one, needs a manoeuverist element, is it reasonable to suggest that an artillery unit that is tied to a particular location (a city that cannot be moved for example) may have a different structure than a unit that is designed to operate on the move?

For instance, if the guns can't be moved because of their tasking, then do they need GPS locating gear? Or are they better with engineers supplying overhead protection? What impact is there on the logistics if they can work from a deep magazine rather than a conveyor of trucks?
Do they need as many FDCs as unit on the move?

If the guns are not operating as constantly moving ones and twos can they survive being organized into large, emplaced, troops?

In other words, I guess, re-establishing a distinction amongst garrison, field and horse artillery with different kit and organizations particular to role?

“got to be able to protect these airfields,” Norman said. “We can’t pick up and move them. We can disperse forces, and we can play that shell game to a point, but we truly have to have the ability to protect our bases because the supply chain will go through there,”


NASAMS as a layered air defence in a box - Sidewinder - AMRAAM - AMRAAM-ER (ESSM).
Can be paired with various sensors and multiple other effectors (EW, DEW, HEL, Guns)

If we have an expeditionary Air Force shouldn't we have an expeditionary Air Field Defence Force?

Air Defence, light infantry and cavalry (for area patrols) and artillery ....
 
To quote Donald Rumsfeld, you go to war with the Army you have...
I suspect that Ukraine would love to have LAV 6.0's to do that instead of Hummers, but...


That's no longer a Light Infantry Battalion - but a Motorized Medium BN ;)

A Light Battalion with transport....:p
 
Shall we renew the debate over what colour berets the vehicle crews should be wearing???

:cool:
My point being is if they are solely to move people/things occasionally, then a dedicated mobility entity makes sense.
 
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