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C3 Howitzer Replacement

reveng

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Chris Pook said:
Well, you can't stay in place.  You can't fly in support.  And I will argue that you can't build an armoured vehicle that will be able to go anyplace the infantry can and outrun a missile/bullet.

Kind of like the Covid virus.  We're just going to have to learn to live with casualties.

My point being that anything that isn't inherently mobile is too vulnerable to enemy sensors (CB radar, OPIR, EW assets to name a few) and counter-battery fire, and thus is of limited utility against a peer enemy that can truly dictate the tempo of operations. 

Nothing is ever 100% but no excuse to make things easy for the bad guys. I'm assuming you didn't actually mean "fixed" and that it was just a poor choice of wording.

Cheers
 

Colin Parkinson

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Petard said:
1st there is the cost of conducting the safety and suitability assessment (and trials) for service that would need to happen. Although the ammunition has been in service with other NATO countries, for long term service it would need to be done within Canadian context, taking into account storage and transportation conditions for example. There have been exceptions to this, with extraordinary exemptions being granted for operational reasons, which happened when the M777 came into use for mission specific purposes. Eventually it would still need to be done. Then there is the cost to build up a suitable amount of stock for training and operations; this alone would be quite a burden on the already limited operating budget

5 million dollar contract to convert all documents to Quebec French. 5 million more to measure all the ammo bunkers and $400,000 contract to update signage.
 

Kirkhill

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reverse_engineer said:
My point being that anything that isn't inherently mobile is too vulnerable to enemy sensors (CB radar, OPIR, EW assets to name a few) and counter-battery fire, and thus is of limited utility against a peer enemy that can truly dictate the tempo of operations. 

Nothing is ever 100% but no excuse to make things easy for the bad guys. I'm assuming you didn't actually mean "fixed" and that it was just a poor choice of wording.

Cheers

No.  Although I didn't use the word fixed, I am comfortable with it.  I would also accepted stationary, immobile and motionless.

One of the issues we fail to come to terms with, I believe, is that there are many situations you can't manoeuvre your way out of.  Sometimes it is necessary just to join the civilians and shelter in place.  Stand your ground. Stand fast. Hold fast. Don't move.  And ideally you still want to be able to convince the bad guys to give up and run away before they run out of water, and food, and the dysentery sets in and they die of Covid-19 or other plague of the week.  Hopefully we don't get to the Die Hard bit too often.

Its fine enough for us to discuss force protection.  It is a critical component of being able to sustain a resistance by keeping morale up. 

But, if I remember correctly, Maintenance of Morale is the second principle.  The first principle is Selection and Maintenance of the Aim.

Or, putting it another way: Mission; Men; Machines; Myself.

For me, towed guns/missiles/mortars, are not about shoot and scoot tactics, or even the slower, more methodical, fire and retire plan.  They are about being able to rapidly establish a fixed operational base that checks the bad guy's intentions as he comes to you.  Two requirements for such a base, in my opinion?  Lots of engineering support to dig in with lots of overhead cover.  Lots of emplaceable fire support that can be fired from under overhead cover.  And just enough infantry to protect the fire support assets.  We may not want to refight Korea and have visions of redoing Patton, or even the Duke of Marlborough, but there will be more Koreas.


My models are Israel's Iron Dome, Oerlikon's Skyshield, Rheinmetall's MANTIS, Italy's Porcupine and DRACO systems, Kongsberg's NASAMs, or the US's C-RAM..... or any modern surface vessel built for combat.  It doesn't matter if a ship runs at 20 knots or 45 knots.  It can't really fire and retire, or shoot and scoot, when faced with missiles manoeuvring at Machs 2 to 6.  Ships, and their crews, are forced to stand and fight.  Unfortunately.

I understand the value of manoeuvre.  I understand the need to maintain the ability to manoeuvre at the strategic, operational and tactical levels.  And I would want a manoeuvre element operating in conjunction with the fixed element.  I just feel that we sometimes forget that there is a purpose to all this manoeuvring and trying to defeat the enemies manoeuvres.  And that, the primary aim, the mission, is to protect the civilians who hired us (once upon a time I was one of you).

The 17th and 18th century was a grand era for manoeuvring armies.  Armies that ran around Europe trying to ambush each other while trying to avoid being ambushed.  In the meantime it was a miserable world for civilians who were regularly starved, besieged, bombarded and even flooded while being forced to pay taxes to support armies that failed to prevent their trials.


Final thought - with respect to the concept of civilian support of the forces - As I consider World War 2 and the Cold War from a civilian perspective - What is the point of hiring a professional force to protect me when the last time around I got bombed out of my home, my kid sister and mother died, we were on starvation rations and I had to go do the job the professionals were hired to do for me.  And once I got that mess sorted out for them their next great idea was to offer to blow everything up.
 

AmmoTech90

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SeaKingTacco said:
Well that is just nuts. I mean, what kind of professional military would we be if we just let our third line ammo storage facilities rot into the ground through neglect....

Tents are fine...
 

reveng

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Chris Pook said:
The difference, of course, being persistence.  The Ground Mount, as D&B requested of his 105 and 155 support, is available 24/7.  The helo is only available when gas and the environment permit.  On the other hand the helo can relocate quickly (weather permitting) while the Ground Mount is fixed in place.  Is that a good thing or a bad thing?  Ca depends.

You did indeed use the word "fixed" - so I'm glad you're comfortable with it.  ;)
 

Kirkhill

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Daaamm!  Mea culpa.  But in my defense that was two posts back.  I can't be expected to remember my previous posts!  So, sorry. Not sorry. 😁😁😁
 

Colin Parkinson

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MilEME09 said:
Or .50 Cal's, 60mm motors, TOW missiles, AOR's, and destroyers without replacement.

Thankfully no one would be that stupid..... (insert Jesus wept smiley here) 
 

Colin Parkinson

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SeaKingTacco said:
Tents are an unneccessary luxury...

LOl, after the prisoners rioted and burnt their accommodations, the army was asked for tents to house them in. When we needed extra tents for an exercise we were told there were none left in the system to be loaned due to that.

Then I bump into some lady on the corner handing out leaflets bemoaning the poor conditions for the prisoners, telling me the poor souls have to live in tents. I snarled at her and said: "They are living in our tents, so our soldiers have no tents to sleep in and we didn't burn down our !#!!@#!@# barracks either or get tossed in jail for breaking the law." She hurriedly packed up and scuttled away.
 

Petard

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Chris Pook said:
I had no idea there were so many Yorkshiremen around here....

For the folks trying to connect the dots (or ate their crayons)
https://youtu.be/ue7wM0QC5LE
 

MilEME09

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CloudCover said:
What are the safety risks with using these sleeves?

Properly speaking an insert would be serialized and adjusted to each barrel. Thus eliminating a risk of improper fit with the parent weapon which if not fitted correctly could cause a failure of the system. Depends on the tolerance of the system though.
 

daftandbarmy

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Petard said:
For the folks trying to connect the dots (or ate their crayons)
https://youtu.be/ue7wM0QC5LE

Just remember to eat your Greens :)
 

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STONEY

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The USMC is planning to cut a great percentage of its artillery units which include 105's & 155's maybe they will be for sale cheap.
 

quadrapiper

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STONEY said:
The USMC is planning to cut a great percentage of its artillery units which include 105's & 155's maybe they will be for sale cheap.
Idiot question - are those guns identical, or similar enough, to Canadian guns to be easily integrated?
 

MilEME09

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quadrapiper said:
Idiot question - are those guns identical, or similar enough, to Canadian guns to be easily integrated?

They use the M777 as well, I think it's even the same model. Their 105s are different though, newer
 

FJAG

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MilEME09 said:
They use the M777 as well, I think it's even the same model. Their 105s are different though, newer

They definitely use the M777 which has replaced the older (and heavier) M198 155mm howitzers. I think all of the M198s are probably gone now-- even the three battalions of the 14th Marine Regiment, the Marines' reserve artillery regiment in the Marines' reserve division--the 4th Marine Division--are two M777 battalions and one HIMARS battalion. (Showing once again that reservists can handle M777s and HIMARS) I think the 105s are long gone.

:cheers:
 
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